The Future of Struts

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RogerCDawe
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The Future of Struts

Post by RogerCDawe » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:03 pm

I'm surprised to find no current discussions on the forum regarding the proposed changes to the requirements for Strut membership and, perhaps more importantly, the LAA's proposed withdrawal of its support for any flying activity involving young flyers/Scouts etc. The latter apparently as a result of the insurance costs involved in underwriting such activities.
As a direct result of the above proposals our Strut co-ordinator proposes to stand down and we will probably convene an EGM to wind up the Strut. We have also withdrawn collective support as a Strut from the LAA presence at AeroExpo 2011 at Sywell. Our current membership to date for 2011 comprises 20 LAA members from a current total membership of 78. In 2010 the figures were 33 LAA members from 99 Strut members. As treasurer I've not yet managed to catch up with everyone to collect their subscriptions for 2011, hence the disparity in the figures. None the less, we fall far short of the proposed requirement for a 50% LAA membership within the Strut, the past benefits of which are extolled at each Strut meeting. I am keen to discover the views of other Struts, as well as prompting input from the LAA itself. Incidentally the proposal document actually makes no mention of 'Struts', but refers to 'Members' Groups' - interesting if you are currently considering the purchase of any advertising material or Strut merchandise, as we were.

Tom Sheppard
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Post by Tom Sheppard » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:47 pm

The way it has been put to me: all things external to the inspection and engineering aspects of the LAA are volunteer created and run, including struts. I have yet to see what the LAA offers to the struts but i see that they want "require", if you please, 50% of the strut members to be LAA members.
I'd have thought that an LAA strut was comprised of LAA members but if most don't belong, is this because they don't operate LAA aircraft, (BMAA, CofA, for example,) or are they not fliers themselves but enthusiasts?
If the strut affiliates to the LAA what exactly does this mean and what are the mutual benefits? Some struts appear to be very active, so there must be some who find it worthwhile. Regarding the advertising or strut merchandise, is this sanctioned or prohibited by the LAA? As there is so little about organising a strut on here (apparently) it is difficult to know what to do, what is wanted and what the LAA would like their struts and involvement to be.

Brian Hope
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Post by Brian Hope » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:08 pm

Hi Roger, I fully understand the frustration and ill feeling that this issue has engendered. That said, the rules that were distributed to Struts recently were for discussion. They were part of a consultation, not new rules that were set in stone.
At the board meeting on March 24th it was agreed that we would return to the rule as it has stood for some years – that is that Struts should have a target membership of 50% LAA members, a relatively loose term and one that is not at all onerous. In due course we shall offer some form of incentive to Strut and/or Strut members to join the Association in order to help them recruit more of their members into the LAA.
Your Strut should have received a letter to this effect but I have no way of knowing at the moment if that letter has been sent out yet as I am away at the moment. Do I have a warm and fuzzy feeling about the way this has been handled? no I do not but it has been put right and I hope we can start to rebuild trust and cooperation once more.
It was also agreed at that meeting that we would look at a proposal for Young Aviators presented by John Brady, so although the suspension of such events continues, they have not been permanently terminated. I too have subsequently entered discussion on a further alternative solution, so it is far from a hopeless situation at this point in time. It is by the way, not about the cost of the premium as has been discussed ad nauseum on another thread on this topic.
What is in it for Struts to be associated with the LAA? Use of the name and logo for Strut promotion and merchandise of course, but also insurance cover for Strut events like Fly-ins, Strut days’ out etc. subject to certain conditions being met. It is also about being part of an Association that you have an affinity with and are proud of. I understand you may well not feel that way at the moment and that’s a shame.
Royal Berks has done LAA proud at the Expo for some years and I am disappointed that this involvement may end. That is of course a decision that is in the hands of the Strut, I can only say again that the Association is grateful for the good works you have undertaken in the past and hope that you may be able to put this misunderstanding behind you and reconsider.

RogerCDawe
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Post by RogerCDawe » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:04 pm

Thank you, Brian for your input. I spoke at length with Peter Harvey yesterday, when he provided some further background information. I wonder how the current situation will be presented on Saturday at the Brooklands conference?
The core members of the RBerks Strut will meet shortly to consider the options and the way forward. Peter suggested that we could still fly scouts, but under the Scout Association's own liability insurance cover, and of course without displaying or referring to the LAA in any way. That may be an option for us, but will require a much more formalised arrangement with the Scout Association than we have enjoyed previously.
Excellent magazine, by the way - thanks for all your efforts.

josher
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Post by josher » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:42 pm

the issue of the LAA membership of struts would be much less of an issue if the Association would get it's a*** in gear and construct a convincing rationale for membership other than operating a permit a/c. I beleive that there is one based on effective representaion of the GA community in UK and Europe and pay my dues although I have not operated a permit a/c for the last five years. The Association totally fails to make this case [which is in fact the only avenue to significantly grow the membership] and hides this particular light under a bushell. I am baffled as to why!
Malcolm Rogan
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Tom Sheppard
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Post by Tom Sheppard » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:24 pm

Hear, hear. It is one thing to say that it is all a self help group but a little leadership wouldn't go amiss. Publicising events in local papers and including a mention of the LAA (8,000 members and >2000 homebuilt aeroplanes from WW1 replicas right up to aerobatic racers and pop down to Spain for the weekend tourers. That's what is going on at your local field) Or are we so craven that we must not mention homebuilts for fear of upsetting somebody's hamster? We've got something to be bloody proud of: skilled people doing something truly challenging but the public hasn't any awareness of us. The message is not getting out and these days, that is unforgivable. Do we want new blood or not?
Is our logo on AFORS? Is it on the Concorde website or the Spitfire website, or Ryanair's or Flybe's? No. We are not connecting with people when they are thinking of flight. We are not making that association.
What would it cost to write an article for an inflight magazine?
Nothing. If you were sitting in a 727 and there was an article about an aeroplane that you could buy and qualify on for the price of a modest motorbike wouldn't you just be tickled into dreaming a bit? Might you remember the LAA?
What might be needed is an enthusiast (ie non flying) membership, costing just the price of an LA sub so that people get to look forward to the monthly mag and show it around their mates. Thats what gets bums on seats.
Failing that, is it time to close the activities down to issuing permits and building tiny numbers of expensive metal aeroplanes for them as can afford 'em and finally dump "Popular flying" in the bin?

Hands up who says "Over my dead body"

steveneale
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Post by steveneale » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:59 am

Can I suggest strut officials take their debate to the NC forum. If you don't have access to it tell Penny what you do and she will get you in.

This topic is perhaps more suited to members individual opinions.

Steve

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macconnacher
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Post by macconnacher » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:30 am

Tom

If you were sitting on a 727 on a flight I guess you would be a convict since apart from the odd one in South America all 727 are now freighters or used by the US prison service to move prisoners around the USA.

As Steve has said this debate is best done on the NC Forum.
Stuart Macconnacher
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Tom Sheppard
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Post by Tom Sheppard » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:35 am

Ok then, 737. And for the second time in a fortnight I'm in trouble for voicing a constructive opinion, out of turn, out of place or whatever. There is no mention of an "NC" forum on this site, whatever that is anyway.

I'm getting the picture. I'm not going to fit in here.

Brian Hope
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Post by Brian Hope » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:22 pm

Stuart, this thread is about how members feel about the interface between Struts and HQ, and what might be done to improve it and the way Struts operate. I do not see it as being and NC forum issue and it would be better to stay where it is.
The idea about getting LAA stories in newspapers, supplements etc has been discussed several times and obviously has mileage in it. Trouble is it is the usual story, too much to do and too few people doing it. And if you think about it, who are the best people to write to the local papers about a recently completed homebuilt? – the Struts of course.
I have had an idea in my head for a while about how we could notify local papers with details and/or a story of recent completions, when time permits I hope to set it going but at the moment I am busy with other priorities.
It isn’t possible for HQ to run everything, and I think not desirable either as it happens. Struts can and should take on more, and that is not a knocking of the Struts, my own Strut is very active but even so is really quite introspective and not ‘spreading the LAA word’ as much as it perhaps could.
I think trying to encourage new members and telling people about the LAA has to be part of what we all do, whether ‘we’ is HQ, Struts or individual members. HQ has to facilitate that and provide an environment in which people are minded to do it, so ideas on how we might better carry that out, and how Struts and individual members might be more involved, are welcome.

steveneale
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Post by steveneale » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:14 pm

Tom Sheppard wrote:Ok then, 737. And for the second time in a fortnight I'm in trouble for voicing a constructive opinion, out of turn, out of place or whatever. There is no mention of an "NC" forum on this site, whatever that is anyway.

I'm getting the picture. I'm not going to fit in here.
Tom where did you get the idea you could be "in trouble"? Your opinion IS valued and in my view very valid. Debate is what this forum is for.
The NC forum is where the knife fights happen. You don't want blood all over you ;)

As to not fitting in, you sound as cussed as me. I think you fit in quite well :)

Steve
Bristol Wing Coordinator

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Jim Gale
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Post by Jim Gale » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:23 am

I have been slightly involved in this latest episode of the LAA's troubled journey having attended the 28th Feb mtg and had direct communication with Peter H, Roger H and Nick Long (who offered to investigate the matter and report back to the Board, which he has done.) Rather than rewrite all my thoughts, copies of my postings on the BB under "LAA Events" can be found. However, since those postings I've seen and heard a lot of posturing and words on the matter and, in the light of all those conversations, come to the conclusions below. They are my personal thoughts and not necessarily those of the Devon Strut, as I'm no longer a committee member.

I have come to believe that there is only one solution and that is to turn the Association into LAL (Light Aviation Ltd) and resort to being a licencing authority only. We, the Struts then become independent aviation clubs made up of pilots, builders and enthusiasts with no connection to LAL other than some of us will be fee paying customers for the services purchased. The only possible additional connection, maybe, is more "Type Clubs", where there could be a valid reason for connection to the engineering facility.

This would be a sad day for many members, who are basically the enthusiasts, (in Devon they do a lot of the groundwork for us, the pilots; we couldn't run fly-ins without them) but if the LAA wants to protect itself against the very real possibility of punative damages as best it can, then my own belief is that the Board has to face up to this complete sea change and consult/advise the Struts at an EGM pretty soon because we need to know where we are going. Many Struts already this year have planned a programme involving events where we will still wish to promote youth and general aviation and still want to fly youngsters and oldies but because of the liability matter, no longer with the LAA banner.

Consequently there will be no PR or membership drive value for the LAA, meaning that the LAA will become the LAL and remain as a licencing authority and advocasy organisation for builders and owners of permit aircfaft only.

To me, I'm sorry to say, it seems inevitable and this thorny issue needs to be faced by the Board, employees and members alike, now.

Sincerely and sad,
Jim.
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steveneale
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Post by steveneale » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:32 am

OK Brian if you want this discussion in the open for all to see this is what I wrote on the NC forum:

As far a Bristol wing is concerned the 50% LAA members rule (target?) would not affect us. I think we have about 75% LAA membership though we only have about 55 members. I am very concerned however that the board have decided (at whos advice is unknown) to give us an "in" or "out" choice. IMHO there is no reason for such draconian treatment of LAAs most loyal membership. Bristol Wing is as far "in" as it wishes to be.

Why remove ground risks insurance cover for struts unless they agree to become branches? Bristol wing has an income of £550 per year. We can't afford to insure ourselves without a large increase in our fees that would drive away some members. The strut system has worked well for many years without giving the association a moments concern. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

As with R/berks I will take the boards decision to my members to vote on when we get one.

Steve Neale
LAA Bristol Wing

Brian Hope
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Post by Brian Hope » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:25 pm

the liability issue does need to be resolved, we cannot ignore it, keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best, regardless of how long we have had Struts and not had problems thus far.
The ‘in or out of LAA’ suggestion remains in discussion, no decision has been taken by the board as yet. Other alternatives are being looked at and may bear fruit.
Though I have a degree of optimism that we might find an alternative solution to Struts continuing YA type events, in the event that we do not and YA ceases to be supported by LAA, I am far from concerned that it will mark the end of Struts. Of course it will be a great disappointment to many Strut members, but let’s not forget that Struts have very many more activities than holding YA events. My own Strut has supported YA from the outset, and in the event that we can no longer do so we will simply cease the activity and continue with the meetings, fly-outs, BBQs etc as we always have done, and we will continue to promote LAA at events such as Rochester Airport open day and an annual Leeds Castle event. The committee of Devon, Jim Gale’s own Strut, has also assured me that they will most definitely not be supporting and moves to move away from LAA; they too have a very active calendar of events and activities outside of their comprehensive YA and Scout flying activities.
Of course there may well be some Struts who decide to move away from LAA, and that will be unfortunate, but we do have freedom of choice and must make our own judgements. YES of course is fundamentally a youth education based Strut, so it may well decide to move away if we do not find a solution for YA to continue. If it does so I’m sure we would be sorry to see it go, but would certainly offer any help and advice we could for it to find its own solution to running YA with minimal personal liability risk.
If a Strut decides to separate from LAA it will of course be a wholly independent club. Whilst some or many of its members may be LAA members, the actual club will have no connection with LAA and will not be able to call itself so and so LAA Strut or Club. This is not some churlish wish of HQ, it’s simply commonsense that as a wholly independent club it cannot call itself part of an organisation. At Farthing Corner for instance, we have a club of almost exclusively LAA members called the Stoneacre Boys Club; we have no affiliation to LAA at all so could not decide to call it the LAA Stoneacre Boys Club as that would suggest the Club, not the members, had some kind of connection to the LAA. As an independent Club we would not expect LAA to cover us with insurance for our activities, why should it? Similarly and Strut that moves outside of LAA can hardly be disenchanted because LAA no longer insures its activities. As I said, we all have a choice in these matters and must make that choice aware of the consequences of making them.
It should also be noted that any Struts which do decide to maove away from LAA may still be invited to become some for of associate member of LAA and therefore represent its members on the National Council. LAA has no desire for any Strut or Club to move away, we hope we can all continue to work together, each supporting each other but some may feel that unification no longer supports their particular purpose. In that case we would still hope to be able to serve that club’s individual LAA members in any way we can.

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