If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Discussion of aircraft design, new designs and designing your own

Moderators: John Dean, Moderator

Brian Hope
Posts: 1262
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:28 pm
Location: Sheerness Kent

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by Brian Hope » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:45 am

All good points Jonathan. Though my personal preference is for low wing aircraft, I think a strutted high wing will be easier to design and build than a cantilevered low wing. I agree the aesthetics are also likely to be less challenging.
Leaving an aircraft outside is a difficult one; just because the construction materials are supposedly hardy enough to withstand weather and UV does not, imho, mean it is wise to leave it tied down in the open on a regular basis. However, needs must for some, so it should be a design consideration.
A better solution perhaps is that used by Michel Colomban, who designs his aircraft to be easily rigged and de-rigged so they can be kept in a trailer. Quick, easy, idiot proof and wear resistant wing-fold or removal can be done well, and Luciole’s all flying stabiliser can be detached in a matter of seconds with the control system left untouched.
It should be noted though that these kinds of features do add a degree of design and build complexity, and probably weight, so we do start to move away from the ease of design and build ideal (albeit that we do not yet have an established design ideology). My preference would be that such de-riggability was an option that was able to be retro-fitted should it prove necessary at a future time in the aircraft’s life; for all the current wing-fold/remove aircraft currently on the LAA fleet, very few owners actually use the facility enough to make it a necessity rather than a nicety.
Longevity of the airframe is vital I think but we should be careful not to over-engineer. S&RA aircraft design has moved to lightweight airframes and engines for a reason – they give better performance in terms of speed and economy but clearly do not have as much ‘spare capacity’ in terms of corrosion resistance or maintenance neglect. I’m appalled at the lack of corrosion protection some quite expensive kits have, strut ends corroding to the point of being potentially unsafe after just a few years in service and other safety critical components having no protection. To a large extent, on a plans build, corrosion protection is down to the builder so certainly specific guidance will need to be clearly evident in the build book/courses/workshop regime. A large part of the solution for longevity is an easy to inspect airframe with builders understanding what protections they should be building into it in terms of plating and paint systems, that then backed up with a good in-service maintenance regime.
014011

ian herdis
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:45 pm

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by ian herdis » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:37 pm

Hi. Folks.

Very interesting idea, just think in years to come there could be a fleet of LAA Specials arriving at the annual fly-in.

How about aircraft type, well my thoughts would be.

Two seat side by side
Aluminium construction. Pop rivets.
Low wing. Cantilever.

Aircraft for inspiration. RV12. Sonex.

Keep it simple and don't try to re-invent the wheel.

Ian
035374

User avatar
ColinC
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:05 pm
Location: Derbyshire

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by ColinC » Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:34 pm

Hi,

We had a bit of a discussion about the spec. in the pub tonight (as you do) and agreed on a few key points that would be important to us:

2 seats (side by side)
2 x 100kg crew
3 hours safe endurance
40kt stall
3:1 speed range or better
Straightforward handling
Tricycle gear (more appealing to most(?) but I think we individually would go tail wheel to get better performance)
Quick to build
A standard engine (not VW) to avoid unnecessary development

If I was to point to one thing that I would like to see us deliver compared to existing designs, it would be on the speed range.

Comments?

Colin
018841
Colin Cheese

Ian Melville
Posts: 892
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:21 pm

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by Ian Melville » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:26 am

Hi Colin,
I have avoided listing potential specifications on the this thread, even though I agree with the majority of the key points made on the wish lists so far. The only thing worse than 'Designed by Committee' is 'Designed by Internet forum' :D

I think we need to get a formal team together rather than just pumping ideas into this thread.

Could you also explain your speed range ratio, and why we need it to differentiate between the LAA Project and the more expensive market leaders?

Don't rule out VW engines, I agree there are issues from tying to get a quart from a pint pot, but they are not under developed. Saur, Revmaster and Hummel all offer turn-key engines, and there is little wrong with Aerovee kits. The cost saving over a pre-owned aero engine is massive.

Others:
High wing aircraft will always tend toward boxy fuselage due to the wing mount. Luscombe 8 is one that springs to mind that breaks that theory, but they tend to be more complicated designs.

Hangarage costs lots of money in the SE. Like Brian I would prefer to keep any aircraft in a hanger, but it may be more realistic to offer wing folding and/or ability to endure the weather(at expense of additional maintenance).

I'll do my idea spec if you want, but only after I have got some fresh air up at the airfield :wink:
Ian Melville
032644

Ian Melville
Posts: 892
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:21 pm

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by Ian Melville » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:32 am

Oh, by the way there is no law that says that cannot be more than one design. If there is sufficient interest we could set up Hi-Wing, tail dragger and Lo-Wing, nose dragger teams, or some other split, but with common parts :D
Ian Melville
032644

tnowak
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:00 pm

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by tnowak » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:30 am

2 x 100Kg crew???? What about the LAA bringing out a Hairy Flyers diet cook book? Will do wonders for the health of the nation and fuel consumption!!!!!

Tony nowak
Tony Nowak
008249

neilld
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: S.Wales

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by neilld » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:45 pm

ColinC wrote:Hi,

We had a bit of a discussion about the spec. in the pub tonight (as you do) and agreed on a few key points that would be important to us:

2 seats (side by side)
2 x 100kg crew
3 hours safe endurance
40kt stall
3:1 speed range or better
Straightforward handling
Tricycle gear (more appealing to most(?) but I think we individually would go tail wheel to get better performance)
Quick to build
A standard engine (not VW) to avoid unnecessary development

If I was to point to one thing that I would like to see us deliver compared to existing designs, it would be on the speed range.

Comments?

Colin
I think Carling already designed this and called it an RV something or other.
For myself the objective should be for a low cost, quick build design.
I would suggest this is opened out to the wider LAA audience via the Magazine to get a larger sample size and more diverse thoughts on specification / requirements etc. These could be refined using existing selection techniques to arrive at a firmer spec.

DFN
David Neill
David Neill
036044

User avatar
ColinC
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:05 pm
Location: Derbyshire

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by ColinC » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:17 pm

Hi,

I think that Brian has already agreed to widen the audience with an article in the magazine, we just need to work out some content and timing. That's probably the next important step.

The points I made above are a reflection of a some discussions that led to the proposal in the first place and my own thought processes about what I might put forward. I wasn't expecting or wanting to get any agreement on anything, but I do think that it is interesting to know what people are thinking at this stage and how that thinking evolves if this progresses, hence my request for comments. I think that we should encourage people to float ideas on design related threads in the knowledge that they won't be sniped at for any daft ideas but simply steered in the right direction. After all, this is all about learning and sharing knowledge and experience.

What we could do is start a few parallel threads on various 'Carling Aircraft' specification topics then we can keep this one non-specific and just discuss the general issues related to getting a collaborative design project running here?

regards,

Colin
018841
Colin Cheese

Ian Melville
Posts: 892
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:21 pm

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by Ian Melville » Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:19 pm

'Carling Aircraft'

I think it is time to point out that the slogan is
If Carlsberg made .......
So it should be the 'Carlsberg Aircraft'. Perhaps we are not into kiddie drinks here, and more ale, beards and sandals :D Perhaps we should 'Take Courage' with a 'No Nonsense' approach. By the way, I'm not in a rush because 'Good things come to those who wait'.

I'll get my coat..
Ian Melville
032644

User avatar
ColinC
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:05 pm
Location: Derbyshire

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by ColinC » Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:40 pm

Very good Ian! I knew someone would pick me up on that detail.

Carling is (or was) a cheap and popular lager brewed in my home town, I don't drink it myself ,and I have to be carful what I say here, but the change of brand was deliberate as my idea of the 'Carlsberg' aircraft is already available, but its more expensive than the Carling one and I can't afford it!
018841
Colin Cheese

Bill McCarthy
Posts: 480
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:06 pm
Location: Caithness

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by Bill McCarthy » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:02 am

For me, the item at the top of the list would be wing fold - as the major outlay in ownership today is hangarage. In addition, the ability to do maintanance with ease at home is very attractive.
I used to rule out the "Onex" as fugly, but the wing fold system and tri-gear outfit is nice. I do like single seat by the way.
032125

tnowak
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:00 pm

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by tnowak » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:24 am

In the first post ColinC said:
"To put this in context, there are some great designs available in kit form out there, but I don't mind admitting that I can't afford most of them."

Is there a risk that the Carling/Carlsberg design and build project could end up producing another "expensive" kit aeroplane?

Perhaps one of the design criteria should be that the finished aircraft project should cost no more than GBP (insert figure here)? That may help focus the design team's criteria for construction technique, construction materials and selection of engine.

Out of interest, what percentage of the total cost of a kit build goes to the original designer as a royalty fee (or equivalent)?
Tony Nowak
Tony Nowak
008249

Ian Melville
Posts: 892
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:21 pm

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by Ian Melville » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:26 am

Bill McCarthy wrote:For me, the item at the top of the list would be wing fold - as the major outlay in ownership today is hangarage. In addition, the ability to do maintanance with ease at home is very attractive.
I used to rule out the "Onex" as fugly, but the wing fold system and tri-gear outfit is nice. I do like single seat by the way.
Bill, if you have a close look, you will see that the Onex wing fold will last five minute in the wicked Wick wind. It falls in the fragile category, and there is no way I would tow one with the wings folded.
Ian Melville
032644

neilld
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: S.Wales

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by neilld » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:42 am

tnowak wrote:In the first post ColinC said:
Is there a risk that the Carling/Carlsberg design and build project could end up producing another "expensive" kit aeroplane?

Perhaps one of the design criteria should be that the finished aircraft project should cost no more than GBP (insert figure here)? That may help focus the design team's criteria for construction technique, construction materials and selection of engine.

Tony Nowak
Agree 100%.
Also build time should be no greater than (insert another figure here) hours using only readliy available tools.

DFN
David Neill
036044

Bill McCarthy
Posts: 480
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:06 pm
Location: Caithness

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by Bill McCarthy » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:46 pm

Rather than buy a pre-drilled kit, it would be nice if we could purchase stick on paper tamplates for each component. It could be rolled off a printing press for very little cost. Then we could buy material as we progress.
032125

Post Reply