If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Discussion of aircraft design, new designs and designing your own

Moderators: John Dean, Moderator

Ian Melville
Posts: 892
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:21 pm

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by Ian Melville » Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:53 pm

Quite agree Bill. Ready made parts can be offered by third parties (subject to licence and LAA approval), but not at the expense of the basic plan/template. That way builders can pick and choose the balance between cost and time.

Some of the items on the wish lists contradict each other. For example: Cheap and quick build do not go together. If you want cheap then you have to be prepared to make most of the parts yourself, and that takes time. To assist keeping both time and cost low, keep it simple.
tnowak wrote:Out of interest, what percentage of the total cost of a kit build goes to the original designer as a royalty fee (or equivalent)?
I thought this was to be a community project with no single designer, and no royalty fees?
Ian Melville
032644

neilld
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: S.Wales

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by neilld » Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:59 pm

Ian Melville wrote: Cheap and quick build do not go together.
I think that is a bit of a generalisation.
It depends on the design, materials, and how it is put together, all of which have yet to be decided as have the definitions of "cheap" and "quick build".
I would have thought that one objective of this exercise is to find a way to achieve something special & different (Carling/Carlsberg etc.).

DFN
David Neill
036044

User avatar
ColinC
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:05 pm
Location: Derbyshire

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by ColinC » Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:34 am

Yes Neil,

The educational part of the proposal might be satisfied by just following through some or all of the design processes of an established formula (such as DOX if you have read Hiscocks' book). However, if we want to go beyond an idea that underpins an educational program and develop the momentum to actually build it, then our aircraft has to offer something that makes it stand out from the many existing and very competent designs already available, so lets keep that in mind in our meanderings about specification.

That something could take many forms such as performance, cost of ownership, cost of operation, or perhaps speed of construction.

Sadly, I think that requirement for originality conflicts somewhat with trying to keep the design process simple enough to stay within well understood determinate processes, but that was always going to be the problem for the amateur designer without access to advanced tools.

regards,

Colin
018841
Colin Cheese

Ian Melville
Posts: 892
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:21 pm

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by Ian Melville » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:07 am

neilld wrote:I think that is a bit of a generalisation.
It depends on the design, materials, and how it is put together, all of which have yet to be decided as have the definitions of "cheap" and "quick build"
To a degree I would agree with that.
ColinC wrote: I think that requirement for originality conflicts somewhat with trying to keep the design process simple enough to stay within well understood determinate processes,
That would have been my second example of conflict. Aircraft in a similar role look much the same for a reason. Go off the beaten track and the costs both in time and hard cash go up, think eGo.

I think the first objective is to actually fix what the aim of the project is. It would seem there are two different aims emerging. Not necessarily incompatible.
Ian Melville
032644

tnowak
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:00 pm

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by tnowak » Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:56 am

Ian M,

Regarding my royalty fees query I was referring to existing kits out there (like the RV range for example).

Tony Nowak
Tony Nowak
008249

Andy Kennedy
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:32 am
Location: Central Scotland (Strathaven airfield)

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by Andy Kennedy » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:58 pm

achean wrote: Of course, it's not feasible to have a 250 kt cruise on a VW for a £10,000 aeroplane,
Wasn't this the Rand KR-2's claimed performance :lol:

On a more serious note, this sounds like an excellent project. I've long been interested in building an aircraft, but the major cost of a kit is a major deterrent. On the flip side, something like the Gaz'Aile 2 would be perfect, right down to its innovative powerplant, but its a major, complex plans built epic, with an (honest) claimed construction of 5,000 hours.

If the combined efforts of a group of LAA members could produce a plans built/open source aircraft with similar performance and much simplified construction then it could well be a 21st century success.
Crucially, the ability to do batch runs of bits and pieces could well help those that would find it difficult or impossible to fabricate some elements (I'm thinking engine mounts/welded assemblies).

For me, something that is relatively easy to construct and flies reasonably quickly and can lift 2 people would do the job.
Ideally it wouldn't need hangarage and have removable wings.

After all, the cheaper the aircraft is to build, the more likely you are to have sole owner/operators, which in turn means the hangerage become prohibitive.
The reason most Europa's never have their wings removed is because they're so expensive most end up syndicated, or with a wealthy owner is fortunate enough to have hangarage.

I'm a bit disappointed that nothing came of the LAA's engine initiative, but I suspect a large element of that is because the twin ignition requirement pretty much rules out any modern auto conversion instantly.
Realistically, no one is going to start drilling another hole into any modern overhead cam 4-valve-per-cylinder auto engine successfully. Will the LAA accept dual ignition systems on single-sparkplug-per-cylinder engines like the new Viking Honda conversion in the USA? http://www.vikingaircraftengines.com/
And any new home made engine will be exorbitantly expensive due to the tiny production runs.
The Gaz'Aile successfully makes the most of a diesel engine by making up for the engine's deficiencies (weight, low power), by having an optimised aircraft design (light and able to operate on low power successfully). Best of all the Peugeot diesel engine can be bought from a scrap yard for about £600 and has no complex electronic control system.

To me the engine is a fairly critical part of the design as its fair to say that aircraft are designed around the engine. The cop out route is to design around the rotax 912, but these are very expensive.
Even a new VW conversion from a proper aero conversion company like AeroVee or Sauer would be a large chunk of the budget for a low-cost aeroplane.

I've asked this before (in other places) but why is it the French are so far ahead of us in this respect. They've got the Gaz'Aile 2, and the Luciole, both innovative aircraft taking advantage of low cost engine technology.
As clever as the e-Go is, short of using a jet engine, they couldn't have found a more expensive power plant if they'd tried.

Which brings me to my last point. If I had a money-no-object choice between a Luciole and the new e-Go, I would take the Luciole every time.
Why? Wing Loading.
The e-Go is going to be incredibly susceptible to turbulence both because of its huge wing area (unavoidable) but also because of the positive feedback issue as its a canard.
The Luciole with its "proper" wing loading will have a much better ride, and have better utility as a result.

Any LAA aircraft, should aim not be a "floaty" type aircraft like, say, a Evans VP-1, but a utility style aircraft like a DynAero MCR-01.

Anyway, hows this for some inspiration:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tailwindtaxi.jpg

Cheers

Andy
039394

User avatar
ColinC
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:05 pm
Location: Derbyshire

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by ColinC » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:31 am

Hi,

Someone mentioned Wittman at last.

I have to admit that when I started this line of thought I had a sort of performance envelope in mind and a bit of research quickly turned up Wittman's Tailwind and the earlier Buttercup, both of which I knew nothing about, but the latter is perhaps closer to what I had in mind.

I have delved a bit deeper into the construction and performance of both, an updated Buttercup with its stol performance and good speed range ticks all the boxes for me. It's the little things like a flat windshield design that saves expense, coupled with the attention to minimising drag to get the speed range that ticks the boxes for me.

Regards,

Colin
018841
Colin Cheese

Ian Melville
Posts: 892
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:21 pm

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by Ian Melville » Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:04 am

Hi Colin,
The Buttercup would indeed be a better choice than the Tailwind, The tailwind I have sat in was not very comfortable. However I do not see any advantage of either against a host of other rag n tube aircraft. No wing fold, fabric covered, welded tube etc. I also disagree that a single curvature panel(or windscreen) would be more expensive that a flat panel. It is moulding we need to avoid if possible (or learn how to DIY)

There was UK magazine review on the Buttercup not that many years ago, not sure if it was the LuceAir replica or the original.
Andy Kennedy wrote:a "floaty" type aircraft like, say, a Evans VP-1,
I've not flown one, but I would never have considered the Veep as a floaty type.
Ian Melville
032644

Andy Kennedy
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:32 am
Location: Central Scotland (Strathaven airfield)

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by Andy Kennedy » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:46 pm

Ian Melville wrote:
Andy Kennedy wrote:a "floaty" type aircraft like, say, a Evans VP-1,
I've not flown one, but I would never have considered the Veep as a floaty type.
I've never flown one either, maybe I meant to say "slow"... :wink:

Andy
039394

MikeM
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:23 pm
Location: Exmouth
Contact:

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by MikeM » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:03 am

I also disagree that a single curvature panel(or windscreen) would be more expensive that a flat panel. It is moulding we need to avoid if possible (or learn how to DIY)
I agree. I replaced my cracked moulded acrylic screen with 3mm flat Lexan for £48.
http://tinyurl.com/kvprlqm
http://tinyurl.com/mul42gd

Now I just need to be more careful when I refuel.
Mike Mold (007106)
Jodel D117A G-BFEH, Watchford Farm, Devon

User avatar
ColinC
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:05 pm
Location: Derbyshire

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by ColinC » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:02 pm

re:
I also disagree that a single curvature panel(or windscreen) would be more expensive that a flat panel. It is moulding we need to avoid if possible (or learn how to DIY)
I think that it was me that said flat, that a few people picked up on. That was a bit misleading, what I really meant was a single curvature for the very reasons Ian and Mike stated.

regards,

Colin
018841
Colin Cheese

Ian Melville
Posts: 892
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:21 pm

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by Ian Melville » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:58 pm

For no particular reason I was expecting something in this months LAA Today regarding this project.

Is anything going to happen?
Ian Melville
032644

Brian Hope
Posts: 1262
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:28 pm
Location: Sheerness Kent

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by Brian Hope » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:19 am

Hi Ian, Colin has been in touch recently to say he is discussing ideas and hopes to move things forward soon. When he is ready to do that we'll run something in the mag. No doubt he'll post a response on here.
We will be continuing with Francis' articles in the magazine on design issues, the latest beautifully illustrated by Flitzer designer Lynn Williams. Part two of this article, that looks at the history of wing structures, follows in the April issue, and in May part three will be looking more closely at the different construction materials and how they may influence the rational choice of structure for aircraft of different categories.
014011

Ian Melville
Posts: 892
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:21 pm

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by Ian Melville » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:02 pm

Thanks for the update Brian.
Looking forward to reading the 'Winging It' article tomorrow when I have some spare time. Great to know it will be the start of a series.

Ian
Ian Melville
032644

User avatar
ColinC
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:05 pm
Location: Derbyshire

Re: If Carling designed an LAA aircraft?

Post by ColinC » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:16 pm

Hi,

Thanks Brian, I had a problem logging in but it has gone away now.

To answer Ian's question, this idea has generated quite a lot of interest and support. However, it would require a lot of commitment from a number of people for it to deliver anything tangible. It is very easy to start a project on a wave of enthusiasm, but I have been wondering if I, already having a new build and a restoration project underway, would be able to devote sufficient time and energy too it, hence my being quiet on the subject for a little while.

However, having given it much thought, I think that we should try to move it on so I will, with Brian's cooperation put something together for the next issue.

Regards,

Colin
018841
Colin Cheese

Post Reply