Remote fire extinguisher

[G.Dawes]

I saw this and have often thought what happens in flight you have a hand held and the fire is the engine side( oil pipe fracture) What the hell is the use of your fire extinguisher in you hand to put out a fire in there. a piped system Would have been more use to stop it then and before you crash and burn. oil and fuel are the only fuel to the triangle of combustion in the engine bay and fuel turns off oil continues to flow all the time the engine runs or windmills. Oil also burns very dirtily with black killer smoke.
Probably the only reason it isn't done is that it never was before in 1934 or so.

[markhooper]

As it appears not, then I suppose have brought up a significant safety issue that no-one has yet addressed.

Or that it isn't actually significant.

If it was a significant safety issue then I'm pretty sure that the AAIB / NTSB, LAA Engineering and a number of aircraft manufacturers would be addressing it.

The reason plans for homebuilds don't include a fire extinguisher mount is it's not actually a requirement in a permit aircraft, like a first aid kit and PLB/ELT. I've 'fitted' all three to mine as it didn't come with them and I wouldn't fly without them, except maybe when doing aerobatics.

Perhaps I could have stated it better by saying I have brought up a significant improvement to safety that has surprisingly not been previously considered in the homebuilt market.

Although fires in light aircraft are rare, so too are engine failiures but we still train for the eventuality even though we are unlikely to experience one for real. The aviation industry is full of practices and regulations that take into account very unlikely (but deadly) scenarios and we accept them without question as being a wise precaution.

The improvement to safety that a plumbed-in fire extinguisher affords has long been proven on the race track in a very real, practical sense, not merely in theory.

[Rob Swain]

Oil also burns very dirtily with black killer smoke.

If it is coming in the cockpit there is something very wrong with your firewall and / or cowling airflow.

If it is not then regard it as a useful distress flare and concentrate on with 'flying the plane as far into the crash as possible', as it has been put elsewhere on this forum.

Probably the only reason it isn't done is that it never was before in 1934 or so.

It is done in larger commercial aircraft, as we all know.
However, many of technologies in bigger aircraft do not scale down well.
I would speculate that weight is part of the issue, together with the installation and carriage of compressed gases that such systems require.

[Rob Swain]

<Snip>

[markhooper]

It is done in larger commercial aircraft, as we all know.
However, many of technologies in bigger aircraft do not scale down well.
I would speculate that weight is part of the issue, together with the installation and carriage of compressed gases that such systems require.

That's the beauty of just such a system. I have no connection with the company but the Zero 360 by Lifeline has the benefit of being a liquid un-pressurised product which means that hazardous goods transportation requirements are not applicable. The liquid turns to a gas when released and wont harm the electronics, instruments, engine or pilot.

The gross weight for a 2.25kg extighuisher is 3.012kg so about the same as a hand-held one of similar size.

They are easy to fit and maintain, I used to have one on my Caterham many years ago.

BTW Did you need to apply to LAA for a mod in order to fit your hand-held extinguisher and ELT if they were not on your aircraft's plans?

[Bill McCarthy]

The thing is, you will need different fire extinguisher types for the fire you may encounter. For an Engine compartment fire which is most likely to be petrol or oil you would need dry powder or AFFF (Aqueous Film Forming Foam) and for a cockpit electrical panel fire you would need CO2. For the panel fire, switching off non essential services may be sufficient to stop the action. AFFF is not a frothy type like the old ox blood equipment but akin to a weak dish washing solution.

[Ian Melville]

Mark, are you coming the the Rally?

I can introduce you to the guys to have an informal chat with.

[Chris Martyr]

Only just seen this post , as I don't do much 'forum-trawling' these days .
Cockpit fires are extremely rare and any defective source or potential hazard can normally be isolated by load shedding . I.E. via circuit breakers or avionic master switches . The points that I believe requiring more emphasis, especially in these days of large greenhouse effect bubble type canopies and the propensity of many to fill their cockpits full of electrickery, is the importance of sufficient instrument cooling and efficient smoke evacuation .
The idea of firing off fire extinguishant , however innocuous , in an enclosed cockpit in flight , I'm sorry , is totally bonkers .
Even commercial jets only have strategically placed handheld BCFs in the cabin , and the only places where one will find remotely triggered extinguishing systems is in cargo holds or within engine nacelles, and then they need to be accompanied by complex fire detection systems.
Pulling an engine fire handle will shut the engine down immediately, as it cuts off the fuel supply and disconnects the generator, as well as isolating hydraulics and pneumatics . If your fire warning persists then it is time to start firing off extinguisher bottles . Attempting to adapt anything even remotely like this into a homebuild is somewhat unrealistic , and believe me , if that were not the case, Beechcraft ,Cessna, Piper etc would have done it a long time ago.

The motor racing analogies are also another irrelevance . You are many times more likely to need a fire protection system in your Caterham than you are in a homebuild , why FIA Regs require it .
Also the cockpit of your Caterham is a bit more ventilated than most light aircraft . Also, motor racing [mostly] takes place at ground level , with armies of orange-clad , highly trained , well equipped people watching your every move .
Lastly , getting a mod. past Francis' mob can be costly , frustrating and very time consuming , but nothing compared to doing the same thing with the CAA , afterwhich you would probably want to set fire to both yourself and your homebuild and take up flower arranging.
As they say in ForumLand,,,,,,,,,,,,,Hope this helps.

[Rob Swain]

BTW Did you need to apply to LAA for a mod in order to fit your hand-held extinguisher and ELT if they were not on your aircraft's plans?

The old ELT and new PLB are both hand held units so do not require installation.
The fire extinguisher was positioned where one had been installed before but removed, leaving the bracket.

I consulted my inspector about all such things, and the 'fitting' of a first aid kit (velcro'ed to the side of the baggage bay). He was happy that in this instance no mods were required.

You ought to be in pretty regular contact with your inspector if you are mid-build so have a chat to him/her about mods.