Buying Spruce from Aircraft Spruce

ColinC · Post by **ColinC** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:51 am

Hi,

in a moments laziness I recently decided to order some spruce machined to size from Aircraft Spruce. I have to say that I have so far mainly been in the habit of machining my own from bigger sections I had from UK sources, but having the day before spent the whole day just machining a friend's Pietenpol spar booms and a few other bits to size (and that with the assistance of an Inspector and my friend), I decided that 200-300 feet of small sections was going to take ages on my own and got the plastic out.

AS were offering delivery in a couple of weeks so I ordered it from their web site at quite a reasonable price even allowing for shipping.

Four weeks later it arrived but I'm afraid much of it was clearly not of the quality I have in my other stock and not what would be approved by my inspector. I still therefore do not have enough good stuff to proceed with my project and will have to fall back on machining them from existing stock.

On their web site, on the very cap strip page I ordered from, they say: "We sell only aircraft grade spruce. Do not accept lower grades for lower prices. It is no bargain. Demand top quality"

This wasn't top quality, so I email them and do demand top quality. Their Sales Manager comes back and tells me that in the small print after that statement it says: "Cap Strip is grade C or better and non-structural".

They list sizes in 1/8" increments up to 1" x 2-1/2" so I fail to see what purpose they have in mind for them other than structural. The cap strip page also has a header to the ordering table that offers: "FINISHED CAPSTRIP, LONGERONS, STRINGERS", ie what I wanted and expected it to be suitable for.

Their web site offers either cap strip or spar blanks, nothing else and cap strip is the only wood offered in small sections, after that it is spar stock.

On that same cap strip page they also provide a link to the US Mil Spec which I am familiar with. It is probably the best/only US definition of aircraft quality spruce I know, and it clearly says:

paragraph B-1:
"This specification provides for one grade of aircraft spruce"
That has always been my understanding - it is either aircraft spruce or it is not.

paragraph I-1a:
"The spruce covered by this specification is intended for fabrication of aircraft structural parts which are highly stressed in bending in compression parallel to the grain, or in tension parallel to the grain, such as spars, spar-cap strips or flanges, cap strips and web members of ribs, skin-stiffeners and longerons which at the time of fabrication will be subject to further selective inspection in accordance with ANC-19 or as specified by the procuring agency."

So, the Mil spec says cap strip, longerons etc are highly stressed yet AS's sales manager insists they are not. I have just asked him if he can point me to an aircraft where the longerons or rib cap strips could be dispensed with or replaced with balsawood on the grounds they are non-structural and await his response.

My questions to the forum are:

1) would you too have fallen into the trap of ordering the 'we only supply Aircraft quality but this is non-structural' spruce?

2) was I just plain stupid to order it like that and expect a quality product?(I even ordered 2x what I needed in order to select the best from it).

3) would anyone support AS's contention that ribs, stringers etc are non-structural. (I personally regard that as a stupid question but ask just in case AS's position seems more reasonable to someone else)

4) given that they provide the Mil Spec on their ordering page, was it unreasonable for me to assume that it plays a part in their determination of what is 'aircraft grade'?

All in all not a gratifying experience and now six weeks wasted waiting for it then arguing about the quality. I am very keen to know what other people's experiences have been because apparently no-one else has complained.

I have no reason to believe that their Spar stock is not up to the job, and I could machine my parts from that but the whole idea was to save time and am not keen to spend more money with them.

Hopefully, this experience will at least serve as a warning to others who might be tempted to order Aircraft Spruce's 'cap strip' without realising they regard it as non-structural product.

regards,

Colin

Roger Camp · Post by **Roger Camp** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:18 pm

Colin, in answer to your questions/statements etc:

1. NO i wouldnt have fallen into the marketing crap trap of some of the companies operating out of the states. They have very lax ideas about things like that, also they can use pallet wood and still get it signed off. You know the quip "Assumption is the mother of all evil"

2. See above.

3. I most certainly would not support AS´s contention.

4. Assumption is .......... There is no legal binding "Aircraft Grade" wood. Nor is there any wood grown to British or Iso spec -XXXXXXX. It is as we all know each and everyones own interpretation of the Specifications.

I have never ordered or purchased so called "Aircraft Grade" wood from the normal A/C sources.

Now to put the cat amongst the pigeons:

Find your local carpenter and for the cost of a couple of pints or whatever renumeration he uses, you can get the local wood yard to sort suitable trunks or planks etc. Try the local boat bulder (if there is one) They use the socalled "same"stuff.

For a resoration project´some years ago, we used selected lengths from the local "B&Q"´s and found it too be a better quality than some of the "AC grade" in the storeroom

Roger

ColinC · Post by **ColinC** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:35 pm

Hi Roger,

thanks, I think I probably knew it wasn't going to be 100% succesful, am just suprised it was so bad, hence the rant.

As to buying locally, I don't think that is contentious at all. That is what I have been doing to date, although it is hard to find the right stuff as most of what comes in to timber yards is intended for the boating world. What I have bought that way has been through a 3rd party testing process so I know that it meets the strength requirements.

I have the parts on my bench for a simple test rig design that Richard Mole and I put together to measure the tensile strength of wood samples. I must get around to putting it together, as something like that will be useful.

Ian Law · Post by **Ian Law** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:48 pm

I confess that I had a similar problem with my cap strip material from a similar source in the USA, bought many years ago.
Mostly acceptable or even good quality, but the rest immediately rejected. Very roughly sawn out and oversize, so had to be laboriously planed and sanded down to size by hand (wasting months of my time!).
I recently bought replacements from Western Aircraft in Canada, along with my spar material and that was nicely finished, cap strips planed to size and as far as I can tell of an acceptable quality for cap strips.
You could try Jeremy Freeland of "Collars"/ Freeland Yacht Spars Ltd.,Dorchester-on-Thames. He sent me some very nice quality sitka spruce to try some years ago and was very helpful, but I chickened out of using "non-aircraft" sources in the end.
Good spruce is certainly not easy to find now.
Ian

Bill McCarthy · Post by **Bill McCarthy** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:18 pm

I read in the magazine years and years ago that wooden ladder manufacturers use top quality wood (it has to be straight grained) to guarantee safety in use. I would test this route to establish suitability and agreement with the specifications.

ColinC · Post by **ColinC** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:24 pm

Ian Law wrote:I recently bought replacements from Western Aircraft in Canada, along with my spar material and that was nicely finished, cap strips planed to size and as far as I can tell of an acceptable quality for cap strips.

I have been told that Western Aircraft have given up as they cannot get sufficient quantities of suitable wood anymore. I have seen some that they have supplied and it was very good.

ColinC · Post by **ColinC** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:28 pm

Bill McCarthy wrote:I read in the magazine years and years ago that wooden ladder manufacturers use top quality wood (it has to be straight grained) to guarantee safety in use. I would test this route to establish suitability and agreement with the specifications.

Hi Bill,

I have bought some Douglas Fir from a ladder maker in Nottingham who was very happy to help. Unfortunately DF weighs more than Spruce (but is stronger) and I would prefer to use the latter. DF is a fallback option though.

Having found it easy to get good DF and the opposite for Spruce I think I'd go for something that was designed for DF like the Menestrele (I think) if I ever look for another one to build.

JimCrawford · Post by **JimCrawford** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:10 pm

Many years ago, when I bought the spruce for my Taylor Monoplane, I was advised by my inspector to approach a local boat builders. They would choose from their spar stock and their man was familiar with the aviation requirements. The price was about double the 'normal' for spruce stock but still rather cheaper than the local aircraft supplier. The quality was outstanding; the longeron stock was 5/8" x 5/8" x 14 ft and you can follow the grain from one end to the other.
Maybe a trawl around the boat builders or their suppliers would prove useful.

Jim

ColinC · Post by **ColinC** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:24 am

Hi,

some good news hopefully and amazing that it should happen the day I started this thread.

A while back I arranged to buy some spruce direct from a Canadian timber company that supplies some aircraft spruce too. It all got very delayed though as they felt what they had was not of adequate quality (a good indicator that they have standards). I had semi given up hope on that, but yesterday I got an email to say that it has been shipped so 6 cu-ft in 6" x 2" sections is coming my way and if it is of the standard they say that will sort me out for a long time.

I'd still like AS & S to get their act together and do something about the stuff they sent me though.

Colin

Roger Camp · Post by **Roger Camp** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:14 am

It seems by reading the comments on here and between the lines. It seems if you need wood, go and look anywhere else apart from "Aircraft suppliers".

This is sadly my own experience as well.

ThePipster · Post by **ThePipster** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:30 am

ColinC wrote:
I'd still like AS & S to get their act together and do something about the stuff they sent me though.

Colin

Hi Colin,

As you paid using your credit card, perhaps you should put the payment into dispute on the basis that you did not receive goods of the required standard.

Phil

Andrew Leak · Post by **Andrew Leak** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:35 pm

hmm..

As you paid using your credit card, perhaps you should put the payment into dispute on the basis that you did not receive goods of the required standard.

Phil

Look here first though:

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/p ... redit.html

It sometimes ends in tears with CC claims, they look like they may have you on their own 'standards' explanation...It might have been better to inquire if the wood will be up to UK standards, as I know of a few imports from the US that were built of highly questionable 'approved' materials over there....makes you wonder what they are building out there.

Andy

mike newall · Post by **mike newall** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:59 pm

Try these chaps.

http://www.robbins.co.uk/

Have bought Okoume with Lloyd's stamps on for a One Design. Also my Bro bought Spruce for a spar for his Starlet.

They have extensive stocks, will let you rummage through and by appointment will have a chap to help in assessment.

Also have all sorts of other timbers as well.

The shop sells West Epoxy.

ColinC · Post by **ColinC** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:10 am

Hi all,

thanks for the various suggestions. Am not really desperate to find more spruce as I have some large sections of aircraft quality wood already in stock and more on the way.

The reason for buying in this way was more to save the time machining small stock particularly given that it needs more than one pair of hands to do.

The money involved was not considerable, but I don't like their attitude to customer service and the very ambiguous advertising. I will continue to press them for satisfaction to see if they live up to their published mission statement: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/missionStatement.php

Hamish Mead · Post by **Hamish Mead** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:02 pm

ColinC - Sorry to hear of your troubles.

Mike - I just republished your post on the Starlet Yahoo group for the benefit of other Starlet builders in the UK. Finding those sort of companies - ones that let you wander round their yard - is like finding hens teeth. I gave up on building a Starlet - for a few reasons, but finding good spar timber was one. I haven't given up on a Corby aircraft completely - instead am starting down the Corby Kestrel (yet to be approved) metal route. No doubt someone on the Starlet group will appreciate the info however.

Cheers!