Small Engines Competition.

Nick Allen · Post by **Nick Allen** » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:09 am

The Valley Engineering effort is not especially light... 55kg. OK, that's all in, including the prop, but it still seems like a chunk of weight to me.

Out of interest, does anyone know if the new D-Motor actually weighs as little as the manufacturer claims? 48kg dry, 57 kg installed, sounds pretty good for 80hp...step up in price though.

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:08 pm

Agree the Valley Engineering engine is way too heavy, getting on for 30lbs heavier than a 447, and that isn't the lightest 40hp motor around either.
The D-motor has been suspended from spring scales at shows in the past and certainly appears to be a lightweight, more important questions perhaps are does it actually make 80hp, and will it sell in sufficient numbers to stay in production. I hope the answer to both questions is yes but it has been around a while now and I don't see it making a great deal of headway in the marketplace.

Ian Melville · Post by **Ian Melville** » Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:51 pm

Hi Brian, did you see the motorav at Sun and Fun?

http://www.motorav.com/

There has been a CX4 flying with one of these for 11 months now as a test engine. 2.6V version

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:04 am

Yes Ian, this engine first appeared last year but they didn't have a complete example of the larger engine with the special heads, barrels crank etc. This year they did, they had an 'ordinary' 2.3L engine built from typical VW type parts with an 82mm crank, and the larger capacity 2.6L engine with the special cases, heads, barrels and 94mm crank etc. The prices start at around $10K for the 2.3 and go up to $14K for the 2.6L, complete, built and ready to run. These were rather 'off the cuff' figures because I don't think they are actually selling engines yet. Bear in mind an 8-0hp 2.18L AeroVee costs $6K (plus maybe another $1K for car and exhaust) unassembled. I don't think they have larger than 2.6 at the moment though they are talking up to 3.1L.
You wouldn't be able to fit the special parts for a 2.6 onto a standard type VW case, you'd have to but the whole shooting match if you wanted the larger engine.

Ian Melville · Post by **Ian Melville** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:04 am

Thanks Brian, yes that looks a bit pricy for the 2.3. I was under the impression that they were using the new case for all models, if not I would not bother with the smaller versions as I don't believe the case is up to it. I assume it would be the Brazillian VW case, not German. IIRC the engines are not the identical.

I would like to see some weights as the big versions look heavy.

Sales launch I understand will be at EAA Airventure at Oshkosh, but only one unspecified model

Revmaster 2.3 is $7685 ready to run.

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:26 am

Yes the 2.3 is definately not the strengthened case, I made a point of asking and was told it was standard VW. 2.3 is larger than most converters have gone to, it's an 82mm crank and 94mm bore, as big as you can go and generally considered to make the cylinder walls too thin and more liable to distortion. That said, there are a few 1915cc engines which use the 94mm barrels with the standadrd 69mm crank. Rex Taylor (HAPI Engines) used to market one as the Magnum 75 and an example has been flying in a Corby Starlet in the UK for some years.
Steve Bennet at Great Plains reckons 92mm is as big as you should go. the AeroVee is also 92mm.
I did get some weights and will dig them out when I do the mag report of SnF.

Nick Allen · Post by **Nick Allen** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:53 pm

Those Motorav engines indeed look pricey compared to the competition.

Returning to the small engine theme, and motorbikes, Moto Guzzi has got a new (or at least heavily reworked) small V-twin: 750 cc, 50 hp, lots of low-down torque (max bhp still on the high side for an aircraft), fuel injection, supposed to be quite light. If it's anything like the Guzzi I used to have, it'll have a separate gearbox too. Hmmm....

Bill McCarthy · Post by **Bill McCarthy** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:22 am

Good find Nick - I see it produces 51HP at 6200 revs.

Richard Mole · Post by **Richard Mole** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:33 am

Hi Nick,

yep that looks interesting. Do you know what sort of price one would have to pay for a new engine? Or what a low mileage bike might cost if that was a a better bet?

My own hunch is that the Tata Nano might produce a suitable engine. There is a 624cc petrol engine and I believe a diesel engine coming soon. Both are 2 cylinder I think and perhaps the price would be more affordable than a European bike engine?

Nick Allen · Post by **Nick Allen** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:47 am

I've no idea what Guzzi would sell an engine for...but I'm going to write and ask them! And to try to get some more weight details. This particular iteration of the engine has only just come out, so second-hand ones won't be readily available yet. The whole bike costs 7800 euros in Italy (where I am at the moment, hence thinking Italian!). One the other hand, Guzzi have made various 750cc engines for quite a few years now, so some of the older variants might be more available.

I had a 500cc Guzzi a few years ago; from memory this was allegedly producing 45 hp. These engines were essentially very robust, though the bike's electrics were dreadful...on the other hand, strip off the ropey ignition system and replace with Leburg/Megajolt and who knows?

Edited to add: just found this...although they look massive! http://www.aerotech-poland.com/index.php?go=6

Edited again to add: http://www.creas-it.it/asi_uk/guzzi.htm

G-AWMN · Post by **G-AWMN** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:01 am

Ford's new 1Litre motor is tiny and frugal. a three cylinder turbo Diesel, it develops 100HP. Derated to, say 75, I wonder what it weighs?
The whole car costs less than a Rotax.

Tom, The new 3 cylinder engine is a petrol and not a Diesel. I know I was part of the design team. This engine and also the next generation Diesel (I have moved on to that team) use cast iron blocks which do not encourage conversion, before you even start looking at the turbo and electronic controls. One reason for cast iron blocks is that they can be designed more stable (thermal distortion) so we get less bore distortion and run lower force piston rings reducing friction also no seperate liners for cost etc. but I guess you did not want to know that! I could quote you weights but I have looked at the design over 4 years in detail and ruled it out.

Stuart Penfold

Nick Allen · Post by **Nick Allen** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:23 am

Now, that's what I call straight from the horse's mouth! Thanks for the info Stuart.

hazelpilot · Post by **hazelpilot** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:41 pm

1) Can someone explain to me the process for getting a new design approved for a permit aircraft ? I heard some say 100 hours at full throttle, some say 2 hours of flight test. If this aspect cannot be written down I do not think the competition will have any legs to it.

2) Having thought long and hard about designing a new type of 4 cycle aero engine (rotec, jabiru, and the D-motor do inspire) , the only real unknown to me at the moment is a supplier of pistons that are heavy duty. Light duty automotive ones abound.

Regards, Hazel

Light Aircraft Association

Small Engines Competition.

Re: Small Engines Competition.