Availability of Spruce

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traumahawk1973
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Availability of Spruce

Post by traumahawk1973 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:18 pm

Hello all.
As a prospective builder, I find myself rather perturbed by the availability, or rather lack of availability, of decent Sitka Spruce, or Douglas Fir.
What happens when these materials are just not available anymore, or become (more) prohibitively expensive?
Do we just stop building? Is there an alternative?
What happens if you start a project using Spruce, and say 10 years down the line, (you may be a slow worker) you find your project being abandoned due to there being no stocks of wood left?

Maybe I could capitalise by planting a load of trees now, and in 20 years time, reap the benefits by selling for a kings ransom what is essentially (and let's not get romantic here because it's in an aircraft) nothing more than a damn plank of wood.

Since we're not seeing Minimaxes, Luton Minors, and Clutton Freds raining from the skies due to structural failure when their exotic Spruce disintegrated from the effect of mach shock waves at a dizzying 65mph, can we leave the 'exotic' and expensive timber for the important bits and use something sensible and available for the rest of the airframe that has to cope with the pounding an asthmatic 80 year old Nazi derived flat four will administer?

Maybe some of us with multi ratings could steal the Spruce Goose and dismember that ugly old white elephant, and distribute the wood amongst LAA builders like some kind of latter day sawdust covered Robin Hood!

Onward and upward!
Stewart Mason

Bill McCarthy
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Re: Availability of Spruce

Post by Bill McCarthy » Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:00 pm

There has been a thread on this issue before and some have found project timber of the required standard from non aviation sources.
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ColinC
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Re: Availability of Spruce

Post by ColinC » Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:41 pm

Hi,

if you are determined enough to build then material can be found.

Dudley Pattison offers a service supplying wood machined to size as does David Hodgkinson. Peter Johnson also does or did, and although he doesn't advertise in the LAA mag anymore had some fantastic wood a little while back and would be worth calling.

There are also a number of mast and spar makers who cary big stocks of Sitka if you and your inspector are prepared and experienced enough to select your own.

If you can use Douglas Fir, then the situation is even better and some really good quality wood can be found quite cheaply.

regards,

Colin
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traumahawk1973
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Re: Availability of Spruce

Post by traumahawk1973 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:04 pm

Thanks chaps, I am determined to find a supplier who can quote sensible prices and that is UK based.
I'm in the process of reading up as much as I can about wood, and picking brains wherever possible. I met a 'high end' cabinet maker tonight who has a supply of spruce, white northern pine etc etc, and because he's not in aviation circles he doesn't see it as any problem. It's just wood to him and not the blimmin holy grail.

I guess the key is finding an inspector who is A) contactable by means other than carrier pigeon, and who knows what a computer or mobile phone is. B) interested in helping C) local, and D) knows good wood from lolly sticks.

I appreciate your replies, I'm fairly new here, but I have found the forum very helpful.
Stewart Mason

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Chris Martyr
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Re: Availability of Spruce

Post by Chris Martyr » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:23 am

Hi Traumahawk,
I was in exactly the same situation as you 15 years ago , plans bought , project registered , just the acquisition of the wood to go then - Fortunately, I didn't quite get around to slashing my wrists , but it was a close run thing .
Firstly, all the places that my Inspector had told me about didn't have any , then I contacted a bloke who used to advertise it back then who told me [ after bad-mouthing alot of other perfectly reputable advertisers in LA mag ] that he was the only person that could supply me as he can also give me a JAA Form 1 . Luckily , I got talking to a couple of guys building a Pietenpol in an exhibition tent at Cranfield '97 whose answer was quite unequivocal . "Don't mess about, there's only one place , Aircraft Spruce". These were the guys that pointed the way out of the jungle for me and three months later I was on the way to LA . The reason that I combined it with a holiday was because I wanted to inspect the wood before bringing it home . I could have saved my money , as the spruce was perfect and they could have just shipped it there and then . I have since bought thousands of pounds worth of stuff from there and they are no more likely to sell you duff wood than a duff turnbuckle or a duff altimeter . As far as 'paperwork' is concerned, like most suppliers of PtF type aircraft components , their invoice also constitutes as their Certificate of Conformity , so don't be misled by jokers offering unnecessary JAA Form1's and things , because it's your Inspector whose judgement is the deciding factor. Regardless of any Release Notes or JAA forms , if he says it's firewood then it's bloody firewood .
Which brings me on to the next bit - Your Inspector . He is the guy who will be your guiding star for the duration of the project, so choose him with care . Your previous observations re : is he contactable by carrier pigeon and does he do mobiles and laptops may not be as relevant as you think.
As wood and fabric type aeroplanes tend to be a little bit in the territory of the 'crusties' , you know , the ones that sometimes get cited on other forums for tarnishing the LAAs racy, zappy new image .

But you'll probably find that it is these grey haired mad-professor types , the halves of Mild drinking devils in anoraks who hold most of the trump cards when it comes to knowledge of wood/fabric aircraft construction.
Sitka Spruce, by the way is not some rare rare commodity, it is in fact one of the commonest species found in the British Isles, not to mention the vast swathes of it in Scandinavia, Canada and Northern United States , the bit that makes it expensive is the seasoning process of up to 3 years and the gentle handling required to avoid bruising, ring shake (painful) and the selection process as suitable quality for aircraft use .
Lastly , Dudley Pattison was not I believe , supplying wood products at the time I did mine . His knowledge and reputation as a craftsman are second to none and contact with him would be well recommended as he can probably answer any wood related queries that you have .
Just remember,,once you've cut the first bit of wood,,then it's too late to turn back , I was once told that , and it led to the most satisfying flying that I have ever had in my life. JUST DO IT !
Must go . my wife's moaning that she wants my computer back.
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traumahawk1973
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Re: Availability of Spruce

Post by traumahawk1973 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:25 pm

Thanks for your reply chaps, I'm blown away by the amount of information given freely here, worth it's weight in gold I'm sure!
I have made initial contact with my local inspector, but I was still at a very early stage in the process (just joined LAA) and hadn't really made any firm decisions, so I guess it will be better to form a more constructive relationship once I've made my mind up and built workbenches, ordered wood etc.
Thanks again for the information and names/contacts. I hope to 'pay it forward' one day when I'm a sawdust covered experienced builder!
Stewart Mason

braywood
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Re: Availability of Spruce

Post by braywood » Sun May 05, 2013 12:17 pm

Hello Traumahawk - this may be way too late for you (just saw your posts). I am building a Pietenpol and plan on using Douglas Fir. I have selected, purchased, delivered, milled and sanded several large boards to the finish sizes I need - mostly 1" x 1".
It is much cheaper, even when you consider the ~30% loss due to defects. It also teaches you a lot about wood, but you must first learn what the requirements for aircraft use are.
You must be satisfied with the quality of the wood; if not then there is no point reviewing it with your inspector. Regardless whether the wood is 'certified' or not, if there is a defect in it, it is so much firewood.
Douglas fir is ~25% heavier than Sitka Spruce, but also Douglas fir is about 25% stronger. It is a compromise, like everything.
I bought my Douglas Fir from a company in Belfast that sells all kinds of hardwoods; I am sure there are many places like that on the 'mainland' that have the same materials. You just have to select the rough cut boards that look like the grain, knots, straightness, etc are what you need. Then you just remove what is not aircraft quality!! Not so simple, but VERY satisfying.
Good luck.
Mark Bowler
Mark Bowler
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Nick Allen
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Re: Availability of Spruce

Post by Nick Allen » Sun May 05, 2013 12:42 pm

Hi THawk

As noted above, try finding a sympathetic mast builder. Last year I visited this place near where I live http://www.collars.co.uk/ with a friend of mine who was building a boat and got his mast from them -- I went along to see if they had suitable stuff for aircraft application. The manager seemed clued up and very conscious of quality control for a variety of applications.

Nick

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