Building advice sought

[4535jacks]

Hello all, I am new to the forum although I have been a member of the LAA for a few years now.

I am interested in finally starting a project, either a restoration project or a new build. I am interested in working with wooden aircraft as all experience gained will useful for maintaining my Jodel. I have very limited experience of working with wooden, small repairs that kind of thing.

So firstly would experienced builders advise me to jump right in and build or is it best to attempt a rebuild project first?

If I do build a new aircraft, which would you recommend for a first-time build? ( It should be small enough to build in a single garage, so one piece wings are out of the question, and I would like to build a single seat aircraft preferably on a VW engine to keep the overall costs down).

I have been researching which aircraft to build for the past few years and still cannot 100% decide on a type. I have short listed the following aircraft and would appreciate peoples opinions on the aircraft themselves and how well suited they are to a first time builder on a budget:

Taylor Monoplane (seems to tick all of the boxes but people warn me that it is a dangerous aircraft to fly)
Corby Starlet (Great performance but led to believe that availability of correct wood is limited. Also cost of build would be higher than a Taylor monoplane)
Chilton DW-1 (one of my favourite aircraft but cost of the engine and complexity of the wing concerns me. I WILL build one of these one day)
Evans VP-1 (Cheap and supposedly easy to build but quite ugly and not very refined)
Luton Minor (Not great performance)
Clutton Fred (same as the Luton Minor)
Minimax (Not keen on a 2 stroke)

I would appreciate any advice you have to offer as I intend to start my project this year and put it off no longer.

Regards,

Gary

[Ian Melville]

Gary I don't have much experience of wood but the supply of quality wood seems to be an issue, esp for spar stock. It was too much of a lottery for me, so I chose to build in metal.

Rebuilds/repairs can be more challenging as you may have to dissemble, clean up and re-glue joints. You may even have to remove all the old varnish. You may not learn as many new skill as a new build, but on the plus side you could pick up a 'project ' for a lot less than the cost of the materials. Perhaps be able to upgrade to a 2 seat aircraft?

[Basil]

Since a single seater is acceptable have a look at the SD1. Wood fuselage, wings with prefab carbon spars,foam ribs and plywood skins and a choice of cheap engines including Briggs and Stratton. It is available in several stages of kit and should comply with the new 300kg SSDR catagory.

[4535jacks]

I have looked at the minisport and spoke to the uk rep but as far as I know it is yet to be approved in the UK. The luciole is another option but it uses some construction methods that I am unfamiliar with.

Is wood really so unavailable and if so is the end of building wooden aircraft near?

[4535jacks]

I didn't think that the SD-1 could be deregulated as it's wing loading was too high I.e above 10kg/m2?

[ColinC]

Hi,

you already have an aircraft to use so I guess that you are wanting to build something simply for the pleasure of it, so I'd say go for wood if that's what interests you.

I am currently building a Chilton DW1 so I am a bit biased, but am going to suggest it would be a good choice. There is nothing very complex in its construction and there are a number of active builders to offer support and share knowledge with. The plans are excellent. There are some good pictures here that show one under construction:
http://photoshare.shaw.ca/messages/view ... page/1/15/

As Ian said, getting suitable wood can be problematic but the Chilton uses relatively little and in small sections. There are no big pieces such as plank spars to source. I am told that Wicks do have good supplies of Spruce at the moment.

regards,

Colin

[ColinC]

re the SD1:

The current situation is that LAA Engineering have been actively interested in it, but the designer has decided to put the UK approval process on hold at the moment (he is very busy in other markets where the design is already accepted). The way forward with the SD1 depends upon the outcome of the SSDR proposals. If it becomes SSDR then there is obvious clarity, if not then we hopefully continue looking for LAA approval. Personally I would prefer to see it go through the LAA system, but I can see why others may not.

As the exact details of what constitutes SSDR are at the moment unconfirmed it is not possible to say if it falls into that category or not. The issue of the stall speed criteria was discussed in an article by Francis Donaldson in last months LAA magazine. I haven't seen it yet, but I understand from this: http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co. ... issue.html that more information is coming in the new issue.

regards,

Colin

[4535jacks]

I have noticed that Aircraft Spruce seems be relatively cheap for wood and seems to have a good variety of sitka and Douglas fir. Is this a reliable source?

Gary

[Basil]

Can't say for certain re wood but everything I have bought from Aircraft Spruce has been good quality.

[ColinC]

Hi,

if ordering wood from Aircraft Spruce & Specialty, it is important that you understand their system to avoid disappointment. What they sell as 'Cap Strip' is not necessarily 'Grade' A and in my experience is not acceptable for structural use.

I had quite a debate with them over the way they stated on their web site that they only sold aircraft grade wood, but I discovered that wasn't the case when I took delivery of an order. I don't want to go over old ground again, but the full story is here: http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forum ... ialty.html

I find it very worrying that people starting out on a wooden aircraft project can fall into the trap of assuming that they are buying aircraft grade wood from such a well known supplier, when they are not. To be fair, when I took this to the top, Jim Irwin got involved and I got a satisfactory response. However, their web site is still not providing absolute clarity on the matter. From various posts and conversations I have had or read it is clear that wood construction is falling from favour and one reason is of people's lack of confidence in the availability of good wood.

The best thing to do when ordering from AS & S is perhaps to forget the web site and send them a list of what you want and specify exactly what you need which is invariably Grade A as described here:

http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co. ... mation.pdf

Also, this: http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co. ... %20LAA.pdf is of relevance and you will see references the British Standards BS 2V.37 and BS 2V.38. They are really the defining standards and I think that I would always extract the detail from them and specify it as part of my order. At least then they can choose to reject your order if they cannot meet the spec., and you have some evidence for a claim if it goes wrong. I would always order via one of their EU agents to get some legal backing under distance selling regulations., I used the German distributor and they were very supportive when I had a problem.

regards,

Colin

[Ian Law]

Aircraft Spruce have always been very helpful to me, but I would agree with the previous comments about cap strip material. Mine was bought many years ago and the quality of the spruce happened to be acceptable, although it was roughly sawn and I wasted much time planing it to size, to fit my particular rib jig. Some strips were slightly undersize and had to be rejected. I have no idea whether or not this is typical.

My last batch of capstrip was from Western Aircraft in Canada and was perfectly machined to size, saving me a lot of extra work. Not sure if spruce is still available from that source.

Ian

[Nick Allen]

Gary, is there any reason the Brugger Colibri is not on your list? Seems to be a generally well-liked little aircraft.
There are Corby Starlets being built in the UK at the moment, so these guys must have got wood from somewhere...there's an active builders Yahoo group, so you could ask there. (There's a mast-maker near me who I believe can supply suitable wood -- I dropped in for a chat with him a couple of years back, and he was (or appeared to be) up to speed with what aircraft builders needed.)

[Harry Hopkins]

I think you might consider signing up for one of Dudley Pattison's courses on a/c building in wood.

They're advertised on the website and in the magazine.

Best wishes,

Harry

[4535jacks]

Harry, thanks for the advice. I have recently attended one of his courses and found it both interesting and incredibly useful. It definitely confirmed in my mind the desire to build or restore a wooden aircraft as I had concerns over my lack of practical knowledge and hands on experience with wood. I would recommend the course to anyone even just for interest purposes.

Nick, I have considered the Max Brugger Colibri MB-2 but due to its one-piece wing I decided that it wasn't for me as I only have a single garage as a wookshop and storage of completed parts is a consideration. For the same reason I am out off of the D9 and and Turbulent.

Gary

[Bill McCarthy]

There was a three piece wing Colibri MB2 featured in an old PFA mag - so it can be done.