'Airdrome Aeroplanes' (USA)

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Nigel Kerr
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'Airdrome Aeroplanes' (USA)

Post by Nigel Kerr » Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:00 pm

Forgive me if someone has already raised this, (I could not locate any topic in the search section on any part of the forums), but as a prospective builder I wondered if anyone in the UK has obtained a kit through 'Airdrome Aeroplanes' or if the LAA have 'authorised' any of their kits?

I know that the company has been around for 10 years or so (since the last time I looked into building my own aircraft) and would have thought their designs / kits (or at least timber lists) would have made it over the pond by now?

Ian Melville
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Re: 'Airdrome Aeroplanes' (USA)

Post by Ian Melville » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:52 pm

Nigel, most of them are microlights, but the company with the most involvement with them is Grass strip aviation Ltd http://www.grass-strip-aviation.com. I spoke with George Simoni at the SSDR Freedom Rally and there are more aircraft in the pipeline than the website would indicate. IIRC there is a Neuport being built in the UK, and you will have almost certainly seen the Eindecker. Best to give GASL a call.

Some will fall under the SSDR banner, so no need to BMAA or LAA involvement.
Ian Melville
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Nigel Kerr
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Re: 'Airdrome Aeroplanes' (USA)

Post by Nigel Kerr » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:00 pm

Thank you for your reply.

I do recall looking into Grass Strip Aviation's products several years ago, but was disappointed that they only had two 3/4 scale aircraft on the books, neither of which appealed.

If I recall I think I gave up my search then for the ideal 'home built' aircraft (if there is such a thing) at that point.

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ColinC
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Re: 'Airdrome Aeroplanes' (USA)

Post by ColinC » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:49 pm

Hi,

there was what I assume was one of theirs in the builder's tent at the LAA Rally last year which I seemed to remember was Briggs & Stratton (or a similar industrial engine) powered. Perhaps it was one of those that didn't appeal to you? There's a picture here: http://grass-strip-aviation.blogspot.co.uk/

The 'ideal homebuilt' - that's a question that everyone has a different answer to and often the same people will have different answers on different occasions. I think it's not uncommon for an individual's requirements to genuinely move on faster than it is possible to build some home built aircraft.

regards

Colin
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Ian Melville
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Re: 'Airdrome Aeroplanes' (USA)

Post by Ian Melville » Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:10 am

Nigel, there are quite a few designs in the US that on paper look attractive. However the US operates on their experimental scheme, which does not have such rigorous design standards, nor proof of compliance. Without documentation of either it is down to the importer to persuade the designer/manufacture to produce this documentation, or to do it themselves. The costs/time to do this is high and unless someone is willing to invest in both in return of a significant number so sales. How many full size Pups do you think you could sell I the UK? It actually might just be as easy to build the Sopwith Version in wood :shock:

Before anyone jumps on me, yes I know some US experimental aircraft are fully documented and designed to production aircraft standards.
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Nigel Kerr
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Re: 'Airdrome Aeroplanes' (USA)

Post by Nigel Kerr » Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:29 pm

Hi Ian, thanks for your comment - I guess I was just bewildered that in the 21st C there wasn't some form of internationally recognised standard that we could all build to, that was acceptable to the safety agencies of all countries. 'Acceptable Standards' being the key.

I guess I'll build an Evans VP 1 from plans, followed by something else....(Chilton DW1?) but it'll probably be a complicated matter to get the LAA to accept a modern alternative to the 'Peacock VW' engine e.g; a Rotex 912.

Ian Melville
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Re: 'Airdrome Aeroplanes' (USA)

Post by Ian Melville » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:21 am

Nigel, There are international standards, however in some classes of homebuilt there is no requirement to conform fully. What standards are set is often dependent on which country. Generally they are aimed at factory build aircraft.

FAR23 is a US standard widely accepted, and will be found in EASA as CS-23, a metric version. This is the standard by which four seat LAA permit aircraft are compared.
EASA CS-VLA, a Europe wide standard is the one that the LAA compare single and two seat LAA permit aircraft.

In effect they are used as guides. I think it is reasonable to say that the LAA will only allow you to deviate from these standards where you have presented a valid case. If you have a US kit that was designed and documented to conform to FAR-23, then you would have a relatively easy route through LAA approval (yes, it would still need to be approved). However most US experimental designs fall a long way short, if only in proof of conformance.
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Nigel Kerr
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Re: 'Airdrome Aeroplanes' (USA)

Post by Nigel Kerr » Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:48 pm

Many thanks for the comprehensive reply.

Part of the 'rite of passage' for new builders is getting to grips with, and understanding, the varying regulations (and on-going changes to those regulations) applying to designs or kits that one may wish to build, it is of course harder if you don't want to follow the herd.

In all honesty I will probably just build a UK approved kit (or just buy a Cessna 150).

Airstripflyer
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Re: 'Airdrome Aeroplanes' (USA)

Post by Airstripflyer » Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:25 pm

Nigel, don't give up on the idea of building an Airdrome Aeroplanes replica. I built an Eindecker from a kit supplied through GSAL a few years ago and still fly it regularly with well over 500 flights to date. It has to be about the cheapest way to fly. I built mine to the old SSDR standard which severely restricted the choice of aircraft to build, but now that the rules have changed there are several more that can be built. It is certainly worth investigating further.

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Nigel Kerr
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Re: 'Airdrome Aeroplanes' (USA)

Post by Nigel Kerr » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:41 am

Hi Airstrip Flyer, thanks for the message. In all honesty I was never too sure what to build, I did have a shortlist based on various factors but as I researched each design it became discounted due to various factors. I do like the American 'can do' attitude rather than the 'can't do' attitude that seems prevalent here.

Some previous ideas:

Campbell Cricket
Vari-Eze
Redfern (Now Ron Sands) Fokker Dr1
Pietenpol Aircamper
Evans VP1
Chilton DW1
Kit Fox
Currie Wot
Luton Minor
Clutton Fred
TLAC Ranger XP
Steen Skybolt 'D'
Thorp T18
Pazmany PL2

These were all discounted for one reason or another (technical ability / suitability / regulatory changes / safety concerns / scarcity of plans or uncontactable plans suppliers / no building groups / No kit parts / lack of appropriate building space). All these variables have changed over the last twenty years.

The Airdrome Aeroplane Eindecker would have been a candidate if it had been a full size replica. Their full size Bleriot XI replica really whet my appetite but I do not suppose there would be much chance of getting it approved.

The Skybolt 'D' ticks all my boxes but doesn't seem to have been approved due to this versions removable wing system, which the original Skybolt did not have - the 'D's individual shorter wings would mean I could build this in a domestic garage rather than find somewhere to build a 26ft wing (30ft plus in the case of the DR1 Triplane) and hangarage costs would be less.

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ColinC
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Re: 'Airdrome Aeroplanes' (USA)

Post by ColinC » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:14 am

Hi,

that's quite a varied collection you have there, perhaps too big. As you say though, times have moved on and the previous lack of support in terms of getting information and parts/materials is so much better these days.

A big decision would be do you want one or two seats? Your budget will also play a part as generally a single-seat aircraft will come out a lot cheaper. A big proportion of the cost (assuming it's not a kit) is the engine so it's worth being realistic about what you are likely to use and it's cost.

After that it's how much complexity do you want to deal with and what materials do you like to work with? How much space do you have to work in? Within the constraints of budget, space and ability, most other problems are solvable, there is more of a can-do attitude in the LAA than perhaps you are currently seeing.

I'd also suggest that you need to choose something that you want build, rather than the completely logical choice as you need to have lots of enthusiasm to take you through.

Some things missing from your list that are perhaps worth considering are the Jodel D18 and the Emeraude. Both have two seats and perform well on modest engines.

The Rally this weekend is a good place to get information and quiz owners if you can make it.

regards

Colin
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4535jacks
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Re: 'Airdrome Aeroplanes' (USA)

Post by 4535jacks » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:14 pm

I too like the look of the airdrome aircraft and would like an eindekker but cannot stomach the 250% markup on the kit buying through GSAL . In the US it is $5000 (£3800) yet GSAL charge £9500+VAT!

the D18 is a great recommendation as it offers some of the best performance on a VW. I have only owned aircraft for 5 years or so and as a single owner, the fear of an engine failure and the expense that that brings is constant. that why for my next aircraft I will be looking for something with a VW as it is a lot cheaper to run and plus you can overhaul it yourself.

If I were you I would also be considering Murphy Aircraft and the Groppo Trail.

I have started a Chilton DW-1 build and it is quite complex so to develop my skills I will be starting an Evans VP-1 soon.
Gary Jackson
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Nigel Kerr
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Re: 'Airdrome Aeroplanes' (USA)

Post by Nigel Kerr » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:09 pm

Hi Gary,

I whittled down my aircraft list as my enthusiasm dispersed on the type - usually after having gone though the accident reports on each type, then the projected build costs, then whatever 'red tape' that might impinge upon the type (someone probably has an algorithm for this!)

Currently the Ron Sands DR1 tops my list as possibly the hardest aircraft to fly and maybe the most difficult to build in terms of available space: 30ft + one piece wingspan.

The Steen Skybolt 'D' did look promising (but the three piece wing isn't authorised in the UK) but $20k for a welded fuselage in the USA is a financial challenge and may be a red tape nightmare seeking approval too. From a safety point of view it is interesting to note that a normal Skybolt was brought down in Ireland in 2012 by a small bird impacting upon the top wing.

(http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/ ... 12_016.pdf).

It may be stressed for +9/-6 but... Ironically a Skybolt 'D' with a three piece wing is designed to have a centre fuel tank (ala Tiger Moth), and the bird may have simply bounced off that.

The Evans VP I / Chilton route was one I was thinking about ...had a look at a couple of build blogs on the VP1, one in Canada was interesting (http://www.stefanv.com/building-a-volksplane) - he started building in 2004 and is still going.. I tried to join the DW1 Yahoo group for research into the build process but didn't get a response. I suspect you will need a personal introduction and be vetted by the people involved over drinks at their club...

If I was going to go 'French'' then I would simply seek out a Condor (or a Rallye Club)

I dislike the look of the engine cowling of the 912 Renegade although the radial engined version looks very nice indeed and ticks most of my boxes - but naturally there is no LAA approval for it.

Having had a quick look at the site featuring the 'Groppo Trail' site - I tripped over their new Aviad Zigolo SSDR pusher: maybe that's the way to go? It reminds me of the German primary gliders of the 1930's.

4535jacks
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Re: 'Airdrome Aeroplanes' (USA)

Post by 4535jacks » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:36 pm

Nigel,

The DW-1 group is pretty open and welcoming but I think a sheer lack of activity meant your request to join went unnoticed.

I too like the look of the radial Renegade as it is personal objective of mine to own a radial engine aircraft before I die- likely a Hatz or Kitfox. Someone may correct but a change of engine to an existing type is nowhere near as difficult as a new aircraft type in terms of LAA approval. Plus you can register the Renegade as a microlight and make the changes under the BMAA but I don't know how easy that is.

One of my favourite single seat designs is the Corby Startlet - definitely worth considering since you can build it with a laminated spar and I think there is a mod to make the wings detachable.

Ref the VP-1. I have read accounts of people building theirs within 6 months! If you want a VP-1 to rebuild and recover inc an engine I know of one available.

SSDR could be a good way to go in terms of cost but be aware that the hours flown on it won't count towards revalidation or a CPL at moment. I quite like the look of the belite aircraft.

If you like radials, the LoCamp could be worth considering since the kits are on sale but I don't know if it is an LAA approved type yet.

If building a two seater from plans then I would recommend a Jodel D18. Firstly because I love jodels (I own a Mascaret) and also there is a very active fan base that will support you during the build.

Another option could be to advertise in the LAA mag and on AFORS for an unfinished project or maybe even some jigs and spare timber.

As other have mentioned, best thing to is visit the rally this weekend and look at the various type and speak to the owners. Also visit the construction tent and try your hand at the various construction methods to see which you prefer.
Gary Jackson
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TRAZZELL
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Re: 'Airdrome Aeroplanes' (USA)

Post by TRAZZELL » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:46 pm

The Nicollier Menestrel HN700 is another design to consider. VW powered and no too dissimilar to the D18 in build complexity and performance. There are a few of us building and you will probably see a few at the Rally as well.
Tony
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