Electronic Conspicuity. LA article Dec 21

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frasersi@btinternet.com
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Electronic Conspicuity. LA article Dec 21

Post by frasersi@btinternet.com » Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:09 pm

As promised I am opening a thread on my article on EC in and its displays in the Dec LA mag. The LAA managed to change my name to Neil, but I haven't, I am still Ian Fraser. May I kick it off by asking for view on the question I asked in the caption to pic 10. What would you do if faced with a catch up conflict identified by your EC display and the guy behind (and maybe slightly above) didn't appear to have seen you?

Ian Fraser.
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Re: Electronic Conspicuity. LA article Dec 21

Post by Doober2004 » Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:48 am

EC: No blind spots. .....this section implies that where EC systems are compatible "there are no blind spots" but this overlooks receiver blanking. In my experience with PAWS and Skyecho there are significant blind spots which need to be considered. Even though EC has many shortfalls, it's well worth having as an extra pair of eyes. Regarding your question about 6 o'clock approaching traffic, assuming I had observed him/her approaching without altering course or altitude, my instinct would have been to turn left.
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Re: Electronic Conspicuity. LA article Dec 21

Post by mikehallam » Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:48 pm

Despite your natural urges International Air Law thinks you may either not have a PPL or have simply forgotten what you learnt.
Pity for the opposing a/c pilot too !

"3.2.2.2 Approaching head-on. When two aircraft are approaching head-on or approximately so and there is danger of collision, each shall alter its heading to the right."

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Re: Electronic Conspicuity. LA article Dec 21

Post by Seagull » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:46 pm

But the situation described is not head-on - which is what makes it problematic. The rules for avoiding collisions were written on the assumption that the two aircraft could see each other, with eyes. EC changes the situation because now we can "see" something creeping up on us from behind. My reading of the rules is that strictly we should do nothing - but my instinct would be to turn left, too.
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Re: Electronic Conspicuity. LA article Dec 21

Post by mikehallam » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:33 pm

Quite true.
Perhaps a vigorous wing waggle to catch overtaker's MkI eye ball and dive to get below ?

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Re: Electronic Conspicuity. LA article Dec 21

Post by braywood » Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:05 am

Excellent article. As a non flying (still building) NPPL it is scary how uncoordinated all these system are. It is going to quite a while before this is resolved, but good to see the progress. Thank you.
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Re: Electronic Conspicuity. LA article Dec 21

Post by mcfadyeanda » Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:12 pm

Regarding turning left (to mitigate traffic approaching from behind), I've had bizjet traffic (probably out of Oxford) over the top of the Brize Zone overtake me on the left (and slightly above); I'm betting they didn't see me and is the main reason I fitted EC (Skyecho).
An older Zaon XRX mode-C detector frequently shows traffic following, but it's my own reflection!

Regarding blindspots, the (lack of) transmit performance of Skyecho (as indicated by Vector) has much I think to do with the way that Vector works. FR24 picks up a much more consistent Skyecho signal than the PAW ground stations; there are many more FR24 stations than PAW. LAA permitted me to fit temporarily my Skyecho externally (on a composite aircraft) which has slightly improved the apparent reception by both PAW ground stations and FR24. But if I fly long enough in an area with dense PAW ground stations, then a much "improved" reception pattern is built up. So what is still not clear is how well other in-flight receivers pick up my "degraded and patchy" Skyecho signal.

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Re: Electronic Conspicuity. LA article Dec 21

Post by Seagull » Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:01 pm

Seagull wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:46 pm
But the situation described is not head-on - which is what makes it problematic. The rules for avoiding collisions were written on the assumption that the two aircraft could see each other, with eyes. EC changes the situation because now we can "see" something creeping up on us from behind. My reading of the rules is that strictly we should do nothing - but my instinct would be to turn left, too.
Pardon me for quoting myself! But it occurs to me that if one considers only the relative motion of the two aeroplanes then the rules of the air hold. If the aircraft being overtaken alters course to the left, then in the frame of reference of the overtaking aeroplane you have actually moved to the right. Einstein would nod approvingly I'm sure 8)
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Re: Electronic Conspicuity. LA article Dec 21

Post by mcfadyeanda » Wed Feb 02, 2022 12:10 pm

Assuming the overtaking aircraft has seen you and is (correctly) overtaking on the right of you!!
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Re: Electronic Conspicuity. LA article Dec 21

Post by mikehallam » Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:13 pm

All v. interesting BUT...

Has anyone found a good signal out strength place to stick the SE2 in a Rans S6 ?

I've tried three places so far: side of windscreen; top of door; and cabin top close to wing root - all wth SE2 vertical.

None make very much of show when on my pc I use my Hex in the free to use PilotAware vector diagram.
https://www.pilotaware.com/analysis/vector

All rather disappointing having bought the thing and been lead to expect conspicuity. Perhaps most other light a/c users are falsely thinking they have adequate ADSB out ?

I might try the floor in an exasperated attempt to avoid so much Rotax engine blocking and ditto the pilot !

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Re: Electronic Conspicuity. LA article Dec 21

Post by tnowak » Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:22 am

Mike,

Although I don't fly a Rans S6 I fly something similar (side by side, high wing, fabric covered.
I have my SE2 mounted at the top, right hand, corner of the cabin attached to one of the diagonal fuselage tubes.
That position has a good view forward and up.
Was flying on Sunday and saw many aircraft in my vicinity.
What is your ICAO hex code?

Tony
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Re: Electronic Conspicuity. LA article Dec 21

Post by mikehallam » Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:20 am

Thank you,
403F31.
You will see it's pretty poor "ADSB out".

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Re: Electronic Conspicuity. LA article Dec 21

Post by mcfadyeanda » Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:15 pm

Looking at range and direction for each of the flights of 403F31 shows something different on each, implying either that transmit azimuth and performance is variable day to day, or that receiver positions during the flight are not optimal.
Again, I think this is at least partly a function of the relative positions of the Vector stations and how the system works, rather than an indication that 360 degree air-to-air Skyecho performance is poor. But I have no way of proving that. As the latest PAW development (rebroadcast of traffic data received by airborne receivers) gains popularity, I guess we will begin to get an answer.
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Re: Electronic Conspicuity. LA article Dec 21

Post by mikehallam » Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:43 pm

Yes, the three individual records represent three different SE2 locations.in the cockpit.
None demonstrate they're much good, hence asking other users
how theirs perform.
The tail could perhaps be better but only by cutting holes !
So somewhere safe in the cabin is required, sticky tape at the ready
But why should one have to be a lone tester when hundreds have been sold. It's all smoke and mirrors a fantasy non effective anti collision gimmick - we've been had.

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Re: Electronic Conspicuity. LA article Dec 21

Post by mcfadyeanda » Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:29 am

Mount the Skyecho on the top of the fin (ask LAA to approve in accordance with TL3.24*). Turn on/off during preflight/postflight inspection.

*http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co. ... ations.pdf
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