Transponders/ATCOCS why bother!

[Nigel Hitchman]

ATCOCS= Air Traffic control outside controlled airspace

A couple of weekends ago I flew up to Breighton, usual route, via overhead Leicester, then follow the A46 towards Newton disused/Gamston etc. Went at 3000ft so as to be above any gliding sites and ATZs etc.
But you have East Midlands control zone in the way. You could route further east, but then there is Langar parachuting and the edge of the EMA control zone is not obvious with reference to ground features. So as Ive now got a transponder that works, I thought Id turn it on for the flight and give East Midlands a call for zone transit. Tried to get my call in early, overhead Leicester,but too much blah blah. So start to descend below the 2500ft bit. Eventually get a word in, they give me a squawk, have time to come back to me to ask me again my point of departure and destination (wasting valuable radio time for something of no relevance- they already knew I was transiting from overhead Leicester to Newton) but they never came back to me with a clearance to enter the class D airspace, so descend again below the 1500ft bit and follow the A46. Opposit direction Tomahawk same level, but they didnt tell me about that obviously too busy asking someone their point of departure and destination. Eventually they came back to me when I was well past their centerline and almost out of the north end of their control zone, to say I was identified and I told them I was going below as they hadnt given me a clearance, they guy was a bit apologetic for not getting back to me.
On the way back, at 3000ft again I tried really early, as soon as I was out of Doncaster control zone (no problem with them, but then again they dont have any commercial traffic in their big zone!!) But all I got was stand by. Eventually they came back to me and gave me a squawk. I was still well north of Newton at this time. Then as got close to Newton, still a few miles to their airspace they came back saying they were too busy to accept me and to avoid controlled airspace. Thank you very much! So descend to 1500ft again and go under, then climb back up the other side.

Although at times the frequency was busy, at other times it was dead for minutes at a time, maybe I was there at just the wrong time or there were staff shortages, maybe RVs are too fast for them, used to PA28s and Ce 152s apart from the IFR traffic. When I didnt have a transponder and did this route, I seemed to have far fewer problems and more chance of success!
I asked for class D zone transit both times, so they knew I wanted to enter their airspace from my first call, but didnt seem prepared. Is it because so many people call them up who dont really need to and dont want zone transit, they just assume that Im another one who has to have someone to talk to. WIth so many pointless requests from people flying nowhere near their airspace, perhaps there needs to be some kind of priority for aircraft actually wanting to cross the zone, over other just wanting to talk to someone, flying nowhere near the zone.

next time perhaps I'll just keep the transponder off, not talk to anyone and plan to fly under the airspace, at least then I can concentrate on flying and navigation and not be distracted!

[Gerry Holland]

Nigel Hi!
Feel better! Hope so.
We all have those days but worth persevering. If you want to renew your faith in ATZ, CTR's, MATZ's then ...... come West young Man!

Bristol Radar are superb and handle a whole mess of differing traffic with courtesy and efficiency. Only the RAF with Grob Tutors out of Colerne get the odd polite rebuke regarding 'Traffic Service'.
You can even pop in for Coffee/Tea and a Bun to my Strip. We have a kindred RV6 here. Drop me a PM if you want a free landing and exposure to efficient Radar services at Bristol.
Regards
Gerry

[tnowak]

Nigel,

Perhaps pass on your comments to NATS (infringement reduction lead Jonathan Smith?) about your experiences. Of course, could be very good reason why East Midlands was having issues, but perhaps not!

Tony nowak

[Gavin Bell]

Nigel,

Hope you found Breighton controllers more relaxed and enjoyed your visit

[Nigel Hitchman]

Gavin,
Yes the Breighton controllers were superb, as usual! And we had a great day- it was the May fly-in with loads going on. Its always fun at Breighton.

Gerry,
thanks for the offer, I'll drop you a PM.
Yes I feel better! it was the middle of the night in shanghai and I couldnt sleep!
Having been based in the Bristol area for some time at Garston Farm, I do have a bit of experience with Brstol controllers, like East Midlands, most of the time very good and helpful, but I did have one time when I called them for zone transit coming up from the SW towards Garston farm and had to ask three times for clearance to enter controlled airspace, to then be told "remain clear of controlled airspace, you arent allowed to enter controlled airspace without a clearnace" to which my answer was, "yes, thats why Ive asked you for a clearance 3 times!" and turned east to avoid the controlled airspace.

Everyone has bad days, even us pilots, most of the time it works ok.

But thinking about this further, it does seem to me that these controllers get so many people calling them up who arent wanting to enter controlled airspace, that they perhaps assume that everyone doesnt want to. They and we have been told that we need to establish our contract for the type of service required/offered, that they forget what you want to do!
I dont care what service I get, I just want permission to enter controlled airspace and then to leave the frequency when I get out the other side.

When talking to the military we call up and request MATZ penetration which lets them know we want to cross thier airspace, as opposed to just fly around somewhere nearby and they adjust their servce accordingly, perhaps we need something similar for the civil world and a prioritisation of zone crossing traffic over other radio traffic.

Hopefully Mr NATS will see this, I seem to remember Jonathan contributing to these forums.

[JohnMead]

Nigel,

Hope you found Breighton controllers more relaxed and enjoyed your visit

Since when did Breighton have controllers?

[Steve Brown]

Would it be bad form to politely and briefly advise ATC that the refusal or non response to a request for CAS entry/transit will be reported (in much the same way as ATC report CAS busts). Controller workload at the time etc can then be retrospectively independently assessed to see whether the denial of access was justified.

Or perhaps there may be an existing process to ask ATC to formally log the refusal/denial ie a bit like an Airprox?

After all, CAA in their response to the Norwich airspace proposal:

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?c ... l&nid=2038

said

"The CAA will closely monitor the implementation of the change, particularly access requirements for GA". (my underlines)

This could help them monitor this.

I am certainly not trying to create schisms between pilots and ATC (who generally are brilliant) but if, for example, controller workload is an issue, such reporting may help justify increased ATC manning or implementation of other solutions.

If ATC have a lack of confidence in GA ability to follow transit instructions even in suitably equipped txpr GA aircraft and prefer to play safe and somehow effectively 'avoid' giving access this needs addressing.

Despite the proliferation of CAS, better equippage of GA a/c at our great expense should bring safety benefits for all.

Effectively squeezing GA through pinch points at low level when vast volumes of CAS are in reality available makes no safety sense at all.

[tnowak]

Steve, to me that sounds like quite a reasonable approach to use. After all, it is just information gathering in order to be able to produce statistics for NATS or CAA use.

Tony Nowak

[Steve Brown]

Having said that, I got transits across Luton's CTZ with no problems both on the way to and return from Sywell on Saturday. Very helpful and efficient - thanks guys.
Steve