8.33hz radios

[G.Dawes]

Does this mean that OFCOM have more chance to try and sell aviation bandwidth? I feel that that one gently died or has it?

[jangiolini]

We should really put to bed the notion of ofcom selling the aviation frequencies to others! It cannot be done the frequencies are protected and cannot be used for any other purpose! I suspect that is why there has been no further mention. Died! The amateur radio frequencies have been under threat for years and I have always wondered why 70cms band (430-440mhz) has never been taken from us until I look at what services use it, Amateur satellite for one along with links to repeaters etc, it is very under utilised! I rarely if ever venture up there but still it remains open to us . Equipment is relatively easy to manufacture and antennas are small and easy to make very high gain units.
John

[John Price]

It's getting quite interesting if we have a vote, 2017 at the last guess, and decide to leave the EU. What happens to all of this EASA rubbish?

We may find ourselves needing an old CAA licence again, as well as ditching the need for 8.33Khz radios.

Food for thought.

John.

[macconnacher]

Even if we leave the EU it will not change such things. There is much talk about being like Norway and Switzerland and these countries are invariably members of the European Institutions since it is cost effective to be so. Air safety does not change at borders it is more effective to reach international consensus and we do not want to be prohibited from flying to France etc who will be governed by EASA.

If the CAA had to set itself up again with vast numbers of new staff then be assured it is us that will pay.
I am sure will still be part of EASA but it might give us a small room for maneuver when we do not like the collective EASA decision but I doubt that any government will want to create a new bureaucracy just to help light aviation .
A much more interesting situation is will Scotland set up an SCAA? and have their own registrations. We already have M- for the isle of Man and recently Jersey and Guernsey will become 2-AAAA etc.

[Nigel Hitchman]

I really do not see how EASA can justify this imposition where 8.33khz is not required anywhere else in the world, particularly in the USA where they have far more air traffic and far more controlling to be done!
So why do we have the problem in Europe?
One guess is because of inefficient airspace management due to national insistance on controlling their bit of the sky, thus needing more frequencies.
Another is in the USA they use unicom on just a few frequencies for many small airfields, why cant we do this in Europe? Why do we need all these seperate frequencies? Many private strips manage on one safetycom frequency, so why cant many airfields manage on a frequency used by other airfields, yes you sometimes hear other people, but does that really matter, its only information, you need to look out.
A third is all the airline company frequencies, we have 131.8 131.9, 131.55, just for BA at LHR, why cant we make more use of ACARS, Satphone or captains mobile phone? Why cant these be in an 8.33khz spectrum band.
ACARS and datalink are now being used more by ATC, why is this not mandatory for all airlines, freeing up voice channels.

I can see that really 8.33khz is only required due to bad management of the radio spectrum in Europe. Why should we be paying for their ineptitude?

[ROB THOMASSON]

Well let's not panic here folks. Just about all microlights have Icom A20s or A2s in them as they are approved and light. They must be approved as they have VORs in them. Now come 2017 they will have to be an equivalent or the entire microlight fleet goes non radio. They can't fit a panel mount 8.33 khz unit as many don't have a panel big enough. Most of those that do have big panels can't afford the weight and still be legal. QED either there will be a handheld made available that's approved or an exemption for hand helds in permit aircraft will have to be issued. All we need to do is make sure this exemption goes to all permit aircraft not just microlights.

[MikeM]

Rob, ICOM has already launched its 8.33 KHz versions of the A24 and A6 with or without VOR functions.
Other than the old A6, none of these current or new handheld ICOMs are "approved" for use in the air but I'm sure their capability for use in emergency will still be an attraction.
http://www.icomuk.co.uk/Handheld_Aviation_Radio
http://www.gps.co.uk/Icom/Handheld-Tran ... 37-264-787

[Brian Hope]

And the likelyhood of an exemption for microlights or anything else to legally use an unapproved 8.33 set in the air is almost certainly nil. There is a process for approval of radios that meet the laid down requirements, why on earth would they exempt a radio that hadn't beeen put through the approval process? If current Icom users believe an 8.33 Icom is their only solution in the future, then maybe they should be pushing Icom to get their 8.33 approved, and if it can't be then build a version they can.

[Chris Martyr]

Brian,,,I say old boy, bit of a heavy handed one that wasn't it !

"There's a process of approval of radios that meet the laid down requirement" - I'm sure many of us have probably noted that the greatest aviating nation in the world , the Yanks , approve Icoms and several other manufacturers hand-helds which are both 25khz and 8.33khz compliant, so the 'process of approval' must work for them .
As for the bit about current Icom users pushing for the continued use of hand-helds , well we're not just talking of a few cranky Luddites here mate , as there must be thousands of classic/vintage types , weight-shift micros , gliders , all relying on this perfectly acceptable method of VHF/Coms .
Look at places like The Tiger Club with their Moths and Turbs, or the Real Aeroplane Co. at Breighton, fitting permanent VHF installations is going to really screw them. As I've said previously, we could be looking at an awful lot of potential NORDOs after 2017.
Maybe all the thousands of affected people should get together and form an Association which caters for these grass-roots type aviators.

[Alan Kilbride]

Maybe the LAA should be pressing for the approval. After all they do represent Grass Roots Aviation.

[Nigelcot]

I am not sure hand held manufacturers will automatically seek approval for their 8.33Hz sets as they aren't required in the USA.
The only approved 8.33Hz sets available are from small European manufacturers or American sets aimed at the high end private and commuter, executive market. For example there's no 8.33Hz Garmin below the GNS 650 which I doubt would be of much interest to the average LAAer even if it didn't cost circa £10,000 fitted.
There are many ways we could have been saved from this completely ridiculous expense, but with no political clout and a CAA that sees anyone in aviation as a cash cow for their benefit why should they waste time developing a cheaper solution?

[Chris Martyr]

Nigel , we have got political clout .

You can't tell me that an Association that is trying to bring in IFR privileges for PtF type aeroplanes, and now has a guy inside the CAA to forward that cause, can't put up a strong enough case for continuing the use of handheld radios amongst its 8,300 strong membership .

Obviously , this would be a national approval . But from Brian's previous post , it would appear that our representatives are quite happy to 'Teflon' this one to the Euro-Meddlers .

[Brian Hope]

Hey guys, I don't make the rules and just like everybody else I am going to have to bin a perfectly serviceable radio come 2017. Fact is you have to pick your fights. GA, including LAA, lobbied against the widespread introduction of 8.33 and lost the argument - the big guns wanted it, made a convincing case and we got it dumped on us by EASA. GA is not going to change that outcome, end of story; we can scream and shout about it, throw money at it or whatever else you think will make a difference - it won’t. That isn't refusing to fight for our members, it is being realistic and not wasting valuable effort on an unwinnable fight.
I know full well that a great many owners use Icom handhelds, I used to myself but for their own reasons the company no longer seem interested in having them approved. With 8.33 they could possibly be persuaded because they will have a large potential market as replacement time looms.
The IFR issue cited is in fact the perfect example of members helping themselves. Mike Barnard and a team of volunteers have carried out almost all the work on that to date, with quite minimal input from Engineering staff. They didn't batter on the LAA door and demand that somebody else did the work, they got stuck in and have done a very professional job of slogging away to meet or challenge CAA requirements with statistical data and common sense solutions.
It also isn't strictly true that the only sets available are high end and of little interest to LAA members. Trig's new set retails for about £1250 and Funkwerk is about the same. They may become a little cheaper if the market becomes more competitive. No it isn’t cheap and I don’t want to fork out that much either, but for the type of flying I do NORDO isn’t really an option.

[Alan Kilbride]

Brian, Far from battering doors down, A well worded proposal to various Hand held Radio manufacturers from the LAA would be far more effective than a couple of dozen letters written by individuals. After all the LAA is supposed to be run for it's members and many of whom have no way to fit fixed radios or indeed find it difficult enough to afford to fly never mind "just find another£1250 for a radio" then a year later "grab a grand from under the bed for a mode s"
I have absolutely no desire to fly IFR in a Permit A/C, but support whole heartedly those who do and saying the LAA has nothing to do with this is disingenuous to say the least.
I get the feeling from many members that they are being left behind in the search for faster and more sophisticated flying. Instead of blustering and putting up the LAA barricades, how about someone at Head Office spending a couple of hours of time we pay for to put a creditable and well formed argument to the manufacturers of hand held radios to apply for approval?
I apologise if you are upset by my response, but what the heck. I am asking nicely.
Alan

[Chris Martyr]

I reckon that old Brian is confusing two separate issues here . His first paragraph is taken up completely with the fight against bringing in 8.33Khz bandwidth spacing. Yes, it was an unwinnable fight , but we're not talking about that are we. We are talking about the most painless way of complying with it !
That is a different fight completely and if I understand it correctly , one which our organisation intends to tackle with a ten foot barge-pole .
As far as the example quoted about 'members helping themselves' [re; Permit/IFR] well , they weren't exactly ordinary rank and file members were they ? But actually rather well connected ones helping themselves towards what the majority would view as a pretty useless add-on to a PtF which only a minority would want or afford.
As far as "battering on LAAs door, demanding that someone else do the work", is concerned . Well I'm sorry if the heirarchy feel that they're being put upon here by us great unwashed , but this is not some minority issue here, being pursued by nearly enough blokes to fill a mini-bus . It actually concerns a massive proportion of the membership .
So, if anyone can explain to us in civilised terms why representation cannot be made to VHF/Comms manufacturers and the CAA to formulate a national agreement that would benefit light/sports, classic/vintage, weightshifters , balloonists , gliders , gyrocopters,,,or is Brian going to tell us all to bugger off again and do it ourselves.
The peasants revolting again ? Let them eat cake [ at £1,250 a slice ]