Rand KR2

[Tristan]

Hi,
Im new to the aircraft building and maintenance world, I have long term experience in composites and have recently acquired a Rand KR2, which is around 60% built.
Im after general advice about the build process, the order in which to do things, and what I can and cant do with regards to certain aspects of the build so far (a lot of the composite work especially I would like to re-do, as its not the tidiest of jobs). Also, how things are certified, as the build manual I have is quite vague.
Any advice much appreciated.

Tristan

[Chris Martyr]

Hi Tristan,
Firstly, welcome to this forum. It isn't that busy here , like so many of the other forums, but don't take that as any sort of stand-offishness. But I'm sure that somewhere in LAA world , there is someone who will give a definitive answer.
Having prior knowledge of composite lay-ups will definitely put you in an advantageous position as I'm sure that many who embark on such a project are on a completely vertical learning curve . So that's a massive plus.
You don't mention your Inspector . He will be your best mate on this . So if you don't have one , get one now because the "certification" issues that you mention will be resolved when he puts his signature to the different assemblies that make up the project. He will also probably be able to clarify some of the vagueness that you have picked up on in the build manual.
Build manuals to previous generation homebuilds can range from , 'pretty helpful' right down to 'pretty non-existent' , and nowhere near as comprehensive as modern PtF type manuals for Tecnam's and RV's .

The order in which you produce each respective assembly of components is fairly open to interpretation. Most people start with a control surface or an empennage section , but there is nothing "set in stone" as to which order to roll them off your production line.
My own project started with me building its engine. Once that was done , I embarked on the fuselage , then the wings , then lastly the tail and stabilitor. Probably completely rrrse about face to some others, but it worked.
Might just be worth contacting Turweston , as they will almost certainly have records of who's who in KR world. Colin Hales is probably the first name to spring to many peoples minds.

Looking forward to seeing it in Project News..

[Ian Melville]

Not all inspectors are cleared for composite work. They need one of the following ratings, my guess the later for the Rand KR2.

A-C1 = All fixed wing airframes of primarily composite construction (simple only)
A-C2 = All fixed wing airframes of primarily composite construction (all)

I think you can still use inspectors who are qualified in other structures, but only an A-C1 or A-C2 can agree to changes and sign off your composite handywork.

List of inspectors are available from the Aircraft and Technical section from the home page, sadly it does not filter by skill set. It may also be worth ring LAA engineerimg and having a chat with Andy Draper, who being ex-Europa will know the most about composites.

[Ian Melville]

I looked Colin up and he is not cleared for composites, that was a bit of a suprise. Having built two KR2's I would have thought he would have been qualified. Still worth having a chat with him.

[Tristan]

Thank you Chris and Ian, Really helpful info, and I appreciate it.
Being new to the Light Aircraft world means I have little direction so far, so great to hear about other projects, and the order in which to do things!
I have just searched for local inspectors, and surprised to find three within 10 miles of me! so that's a good start. I will get in touch next, and take things from there.

Im currently at the 'information building' stage, I have started tidying and sorting the parts I have, but want to chat to someone who can tell me what I can and cant do. A lot of the parts could be made from moulds and much improved on strength/weight wise, but not knowing how things work from a certification point of view, I obviously dont want to undertake work that might not be permitted.

Engine choice is another grey area currently, as have a limited budget, yet from what I have seen, KR's need quite a bit of power compared with other aircraft. I will contact Turweston, and see what they have to say. But again, any advice much appreciated.

I will hopefully make the project a bit more public shortly, as I always like to hear the opinions and experience of others.

Thanks again! And looking forward to getting more involved with the LAA!

[Chris Martyr]

Ian,,,,,,,,,,,,come on now ! , we need more detailed info now regarding composite Inspectors...
So,,,,,come along ,,back into that carzy mate...

Sorry Tristan , it is something that I have ribbed him about in the past when he let it slip about where he keeps his library of LAA mags. This one of the nice things about this forum. You can josh with people you've never had the pleasure of meeting. [ can't say that about many aviation forums ]
But seriously , with regard to your engine query . I believe that some KR's have performed well with VW's in the past. Many will grit their teeth at the mention of Jabiru's , but there is one LAA'er in particular who has nearly circumnavigated the globe twice in a Jab. engined KR , so there are good, budget orientated solutions there on the propulsion side of things.

Hang in there mate..

[Tristan]

Hahaha,

sounds like this is the forum to be on then!

I looked at Jabiru's, and had quite mixed emotions to be honest too, didn,t really come to much of a conclusion, but seemed to get more positive vibes from the VW angle. Its just the power issue that would worry me a bit.

I saw a nicely built KR with a corvair engine, looked well put together, and had very good performance and reliability from what I read. Cant find many engines for sale in the UK full stop, so may have to look a little further afield.

[Chris Martyr]

I saw a nicely built KR with a corvair engine,

Indeed Tristan , and there was a very interesting article some time back in LA mag about the Chevy Corvair engine. They are a bit like hens teeth over here , but [without going off google-trawling] I am sure that our cousins across the pond may be of assistance here.
I still wouldn't discount the Jabiru totally. Whilst not wishing to dig up debates from the past , problems experienced in other parts of the world haven't necessarily reflected here. Probably because of the LAA's superb oversight and professionalism. So try and keep an open mind on that one and not be too swayed by gossip.
My own personal favourite amongst the smaller capacity, budget orientated engines will probably always be the VW.

As fitted to that super sleek sex machine [ ]you can see at the top right of the page......

[Ian Melville]

Hi Chris,
I didn't use my stash of mags, honest

There is far too many mentions of the word composite, however I did turn up some stuff on the KR2. Mostly project registrations and for sale, not to mention a few whopsies.

Oliver,
I notice that it is of a mould-less design to make it practical for scratch home building, to start using moulds for structural parts would be a major redesign. I really would not go down that route, unless you can do stress analysis on composites, and even then you would be lining yourself up for a lot of pain. Making good poor workmanship is fine with the appropiate inspectors approval.

Ivan Shaw is also another desiner/builder who has vast experiance of composite (he designed the Europa), and is listed as an inspector.

[Tristan]

Thanks Ian, that's interesting what you said.
I wondered how straight forward it would be, as I can undertake basic structural analysis, and certainly vastly improve in every way on the original build methods,(we do a lot of reverse engineering as a business) but my concern would be how things work as a complete structure, and having not come from a timber background, this is certainly an area I wouldn't be confident in.

Good news though, I have now found a local instructor, who is meeting me next week to have a look (and hopefully not a laugh) at what I have purchased! I will heep you updated!

Thanks again for the advice everyone!

[Chris Martyr]

Hey Tristan , next time he calls you "Oliver", then call him Montmerency . [ ]

But back to the KR. Do you have a build-book ? Hopefully you will have got one of these and if you have , then the sections that have been completed , will have been signed off by a suitably approved LAA Inspector.
This could answer one or two of your "certification" issues. If indeed there are sections of the project that have been signed off , then make sure that you talk to your Inspector before "improving" them , as that could ultimately mean the difference between your KR2 being an aeroplane or a goldfish pond.

But from what you've said , you sound like the ideal candidate for a project such as this.

Onward and upward mate.

[Brian Hope]

Hi Tristan. One thing that hasn't been mentioned about the KR2 is the absolute necessity to keep it simple and ensure you build it as light as possible. Of the KRs that have flown in the UK, the majority have been limited to single seat operation because they have been built too heavy. The useful load is pretty minimal to start with for a two-seater, so add unnecessary weight to the airframe and you have a problem.
This means that the Corvair is a non starter in the UK, the best weight you will get it down to is about 200lbs. A very light 2180cc (80hp) VW conversion will be about 150lbs (no starter or alternator), and a 2200 Jabiru is quoted as 138lbs with a starter and alternator. As you can see, the Jab has a lot going for it.
There is a lot of KR info on the internet but be aware that what happens in the US is not necessarily transferable to the UK, where homebuilts have to be built to an approved standard. That doesn't mean it is impossible to build other than a standard version, but it does mean you have to apply for modifications if you do want to do something different.
Good luck with your project.

[Tristan]

Thanks,
The more people i talk to, the more weight seems to be the main issue area. I have been in touch with Colin now,who is clearly an expert in these planes, he is looking at the photos I have of the build so far, so looking forward to hearing his opinions and advice.

Also good to hear a bit more about engine weights, clearly quite a difference between the Jabs and other suitable engines which is interesting. Sounds like engine weight is as important as power delivery in this situation.

I will keep you updated with how I get on tomorrow with my inspector. Fingers crossed he is excited about the project and doesn't just laugh at me!

[Ian Melville]

Sorry Tristan, don't know where I got Oliver from

Chris, I had to look up Montmerency, new to me as an unedukated oik. Mothers maiden name was that of another gentleman thief’s, so you never know

[Tristan]

Well, good news so far,
My inspector was pleased with the build quality of the 'boat' and all the timber aspects of the plane, This was all structurally sound, and well presented (good considering the last time it was worked on was 1990!

The composite side of things was a slightly different story (as I half predicted), and there are quite a lot of previously undertaken jobs that will require re-doing.

The good news, is that many of the pre-moulded parts, he said could be re-made, using more advanced materials and therefore reducing weight significantly, whilst maintaining/improving strength, so this pleased me.

I am now trying to get any info available about the history of this KR, and checking on what has been passed/signed off, and what hasn't.
,
, Can anyone shed some light on the following numbers? 7,8,16 (passed in July 1989) And 14,4 and 3 (passed in October 1990). I presume these numbers correlate to build aspects, but couldn't find much online.