LAA amateur built aircraft flying to France post Brexit

[fawkesb]

Hi Donald - that weblink does not appear to work. Are you able to share the full weblink reference again please? Thanks

[Ian Melville]

It's the LAA website that is blocking it. It is trying to open it within the LAA website, rather than taking you to a new page. Right click and open in new window works.

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/id/ ... 0043328559

et immatriculés dans un Etat partie à l'accord sur l'Espace économique européen, en Suisse ou au Royaume-Uni sont autorisés à survoler temporairement le territoire français

[colinwilkinson]

Just one thing that I feel needs clarification. It states, “Amateur built aircraft”
Is it correct to assume, dangerous I know, that this includes those ‘non-amateur’ ie ‘factory built’ aircraft, my DR1050 and many other types, that are within the LAA scope ?

[Donald Walker]

The decree covers Recommendations ECAC INT.S/11-1 (June 1980) on home-built aircraft and ECAC/35-1 (May 2016) on certain historical aircraft.

Here are courtesy translations of the decrees on home-built aircraft and historic aircraft that are due to be updated to include the UK.

I would hope the DR1050 is covered by the second.

[Steve Slater]

As Donald Walker has highlighted, the latest Arrete, https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/id/ ... 0043328559 defines the status of the UK in relation to Permit aircraft overflight, effectively returning us to where we were before leaving the EC.

The definition of the letters of recommendation have not been changed, and any aircraft not classified as amateur-built or historic, will require a specific permission from DGAC, just as before. Given the joint pressures of Brexit and Covid, it is unlikely we can effect any change to this in the short term.

For clarification the agreement for historic aircraft states; " aircraft whose:
— initial design was established before 1 January 1955, and
— production has been stopped before 1 January 1975;

Unfortunately a factory-built DR1050, designed in 1958, falls outside this criteria, therefore an individual permission is required. We recommend you drop a line to the DGAC at [email protected] for further advice. I’ll also raise this in dialogue with our friends at DGAC to see if further advice might be forthcoming.

[Izabaz]

This definition is not correct.

The text says :"dont le premier vol du premier exemplaire du même type a été effectué il y a au moins 30 ans ;
dont la fabrication du dernier exemplaire du même type a été arrêtée il y a au moins 20 ans."

=

First flight of the type at least 30 years ago
+ last one built at least 20 years ago.

Anyway, this is to qualify for a French "vintage" permit to fly registration, not necessarily to address the issue of allowing UK permit aircraft over the French territory.

And what about the CAA for authorising French CNRAC (national permit to fly) ?

All the best,

Iza

[Donald Walker]

Here is a link to the application for a temporary validation of a permit to fly.

https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/sites/defa ... /LP6-2.doc

[Donald Walker]

Iza,
You are looking at the wrong text. The exemption we are talking about refers to aircraft in "category (a) (i) of Annex II to Regulation n°216/2008", since replaced by Annex 1 of Regulation (EU) 2018/1139, Article 1 a (i). Those aircraft are exactly as described by Steve.

With regards to a CAA exemption for French CNRAC (national permit to fly), this has been in place since 2012.

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4_910.pdf

[AlanR]

Ok, that's the aircraft sorted for going to France which is great! All I need now is a licence/medical combo other than a Class 2 medical that the EU will accept.
Any news on if/when they will accept a UK issued LAPL/LAPL medical?...or better still a Med Dec?

[Donald Walker]

The licence, LAPL or NPPL is covered by

Article 4
Le pilote est titulaire d'un titre aéronautique et des qualifications associées permettant de voler sur cet aéronef, soit délivré par l'Etat d'immatriculation ou par un organisme ayant reçu délégation de cet Etat, soit validé ou reconnu par cet Etat.

Article 4
The pilot shall hold a pilot’s licence and associated qualifications entitling him to fly this
aircraft, issued either by the State of registration or an organisation with a delegation by the
said State, or validated or accepted by the said State.

A PMD is not covered there.

[AlanR]

I suppose it is expecting too much in the short term to expect them to accept a PMD, but would be good if they would accept a UK LAPL wouldn't it?

[Donald Walker]

But they do accept a LAPL, in a homebuilt and the aircraft in Annex 1 Article 1a(i).

"The pilot shall hold a pilot’s licence and associated qualifications entitling him to fly this
aircraft, issued either by the State of registration or an organisation with a delegation by the
said State, or validated or accepted by the said State."

That refers to any licence that entitles the pilot to fly that aircraft in the UK. If an ICAO compliant licence was required, there would be no need to include that article.

[AlanR]

Donald,
I would like to hope you are correct? However until someone officially tells me different I have my doubts.
As I understand things the LAPL licence is non ICAO as you say, but is an EASA licence and as the UK is no longer in EASA a previously UK issued LAPL is not acceptable for flight in the EU by a UK pilot.

[Donald Walker]

Alan,
The CAA has issued this statement on the validity of the LAPL.

A UK CAA issued EU Part-FCL LAPL will become a UK CAA issued Part-FCL LAPL.
The LAPL does not conform to the standard PPL in ICAO Annex 1; this is often referred to as sub-ICAO.
After 31 December 2020, there is no recognition of UK-issued pilot licences by EASA.
This means a UK CAA issued Part-FCL LAPL:
1. May be used in UK airspace to operate UK (G) registered aircraft within licence privileges.
2. May not be used outside UK airspace, including EU airspace, unless with the approval of the State or Crown Dependency concerned.

France has given that approval in Article 4, even if it has not been spelled out. The wording of that article is very similar to the one in the French decree on foreign microlights, which covers a UK NPPL M.

- et, concernant le pilote :
- il est titulaire d'un titre permettant de voler sur cet ULM soit délivré par cet Etat ou par un organisme ayant reçu délégation de cet Etat, soit validé ou reconnu par cet Etat ;

[AlanR]

Donald,
As you say it has not been exactly 'spelled out'.
As things stand at the moment a UK issued LAPL as laid out by the CAA is 'UK Flight only'. So I think we do need some official clarification on where we stand before venturing forth into the EU.
Of course It all depends this year anyway on if it is going to be possible due to Covid?
So as I said originally, my aircraft can go to France but at the moment the best picture we can paint on this regarding if I can pilot my aircraft without a Class 2 medical to the EU currently is still, putting the best positive spin on it, very unclear!