Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

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DavidS
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Joined: Fri May 06, 2022 12:18 pm

Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by DavidS » Fri May 06, 2022 6:08 pm

I am planning to fly to Austria later this summer in my RV6. I wanted to check on the process to get permission to fly in German and Austrian airspace with a permit aircraft. There is some information on the LAA website saying that flights in Belgium and French airspace are fine. It also says that there have been agreements with Germany and Austria in the past but no information on the current status.
Has anybody flown abroad recently who might be able to give me some guidance as to procedures to obtain permissions, if necessary?

Clive
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:19 pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by Clive » Fri May 06, 2022 9:15 pm

See here for Germany

https://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p1910414

About Austria I don't know but I'm interested if anyone does know?

Regards, Clive
Clive James

David Broom
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:00 am
Location: Herts

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by David Broom » Sat May 07, 2022 5:04 pm

Hi David
Regarding Austria, the last time I flew my RV6 to Voslau was 2006 so any advice would not be particularly recent :(
I made a number of trips in the pre-covid year, 2019 into/across Germany in my RV7 so a little more recent.
The LAA TL 2.08 shows both countries as being ECAC member states which have fully implemented ECAC Recommendation INT.S/11-1 (dated 1980)
ie Nations which have fully implemented:- Full and free movement, no time restriction, no charge, no notification for 'permit to fly' aircraft.

Can't help with any post Brexit customs/immigration issues that may apply though. Also probably worthwhile contacting the intended airfield of destination of course.

Have fun.

David

Clive
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:19 pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by Clive » Sat May 07, 2022 6:14 pm

I’ve bitten the bullet and asked the contakt on the Austrocontrol website to confirm we still meet the terms of the exemption.
Unfortunately Germany require, what is a quite simple submission, an application which was approved and returned within a day.
See the website on the Flyer Forum for who to contact and what to send.
I’ll report back on the response I get from the Austrians.
Regards Clive
Clive James

Clive
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:19 pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by Clive » Fri May 13, 2022 2:12 pm

In case anyone was wondering, no reply as yet, CJ
Clive James

netsua
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:46 am

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by netsua » Wed May 18, 2022 11:09 am

Hi All, I found David's comments extremely useful, thanks. I followed up on ECAC Recommendation on home-built aircraft - 1980 (INT.S/11-1) and came to the following;
https://www.ecac-ceac.org/activities/sa ... 6-aircraft
This in turn contains a link to an ECAC state of play table, showing the position on Permit and Historic aircraft in each ECAC signatory, with references to the relevant local legal sources;
https://www.ecac-ceac.org/images/activi ... t_1980.pdf
Referring back to my own topic below about LAPL validity in Italy, I followed through to the Italian source reference and it's perfectly clear that ECAC signatory state Permit aircraft are permitted unlimited flight in Italian airspace subject to the limitations in the respective home country CofA. No extra permissions required. What it does not say is whether the LAPL is acceptable but then, when I followed the French legal reference, I did not find that there either! However, I know that in these columns, chapter and verse to the effect that flying Permit aircraft with LAPL is authorised in France so maybe it is in Italy too, given that the ECAC recommended amendments are pretty much identical in both legal sources?
Stephen Austen
035109

David Broom
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:00 am
Location: Herts

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by David Broom » Thu May 19, 2022 8:51 am

Stephen
I have flown to/into Italy many times over the years but tread carefully if you are planning to go there now. ECAC agreement amounts to a recommendation by ECAC which member states chose to implement. At present, Italy appear to have taken the stance that since the UK has left the EU and is no longer an EASA state, different rules will apply.
See https://www.enac.gov.it/en/safety-secur ... he-italian
There is a link on that web page to a PDF application form, not a problem perhaps except you have to submit the 218 euro application fee with the form!

Regards
David Broom

Clive
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:19 pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by Clive » Thu May 19, 2022 11:56 am

Thanks for that David, that seems pretty clear.
All looks fine aside from the specific flights.
Not so easy to know exactly when and where.
Also the eye watering fee…..
We’re currently in Corsica and are evaluating the return route….regards Clive
Clive James

netsua
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:46 am

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by netsua » Thu May 19, 2022 12:31 pm

Hi David,

Thanks for your warning. Good news is that according to this from ENAC, in Italian, ECAC signatory Permit aircraft are allowed into Italian airspace without limit or further permissions required. See section 5:

https://www.enac.gov.it/repository/Cont ... AV_74B.pdf

Obviously rather confusing and contradictory to your own link. I wonder if the latter was updated? My own shows it to be updated post request from ECAC. The least you can say, Clive, is that you were following the ENAC position in my link and were unaware of David's link.
Stephen Austen
035109

David Broom
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:00 am
Location: Herts

Re: Flying in Germany and Austria with permit aircraft

Post by David Broom » Thu May 19, 2022 7:23 pm

Stephen
The worry here would be that the pdf form related to your link is dated 2017 (pre-brexit) and the other one relating to the very significant fee is dated 2022.
Best Regards
David Broom

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