ELT carriage in France UK & Holland

Steve Brown · Post by **Steve Brown** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:22 pm

So in France an ELT / PLB is recommended but not compulsory

https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr ... _10_EN.pdf

And in UK a non public transport a/c is not required to have an ELT or PLB

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ors4_682.pdf

But Holland absolutely requires an ELT with the aircraft 24 bit address (as per Mode S)- ie regs specifically quotes that a PLB is NOT sufficient - even with 406 MHz & with GPS - for all international flights that go through the Holland FIR.

http://www.ivw.nl/Images/AIC-B%200708_tcm247-223162.pdf

So no more Holland trips then or transits through.

What a shame - how did we get to this?

Steve

macconnacher · Post by **macconnacher** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:21 am

At one time the Netherlands only gave limited access to homebuilts and through the good offices of NVAV we gained good access. We now need a pan European solution or we will have no-go areas in patches in Europe which will stop our Scandanavian friends from comming to UK and they have always been supporters of our National Rally.

The old joke was that the Dutch had concerns over British aircraft staying too long. It seems we littered their countryside with lots of wooden airframes around Arhnem in 1944 which we did not remove and they are anxious not to allow it to happen again

J.C. · Post by **J.C.** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:23 pm

They may have to have one in holland, but how long before they're told they can't switch it on?

Post by **John Dean** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:35 pm

My interpretation of the Dutch AIC is that only GA aircraft issued with a C of A after 1st July 2008 are required to have an ELT.

I have also seen it said that the B series of AIC's are for National issue only and this requirement will, therefore, only apply to Dutch aircraft.

I could well be wrong!

Steve Brown · Post by **Steve Brown** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:23 pm

John - I wish I could read your interpretation into this AIC but 1 below seems very clear.

INTERNATIONAL GENERAL AVIATION
– AEROPLANES
1. All aeroplanes (including TMG and MLA) shall be
equipped with at least one ELT of any type.
2. All aeroplanes (including TMG and MLA) for which
the certificate of airworthiness is first issued after
July 1st 2008.

Please advise why you think international flights to holland in UK permit a/c are exempt
Thanks

Post by **John Dean** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:51 am

The wording is ambiguous. My interpretation is that paragraph 1 is subject to the limitation of paragraph 2.

It would be interesting to be able to read the Dutch original as there seems to be more wording than the English translation.

As I said originally, I could be wrong but under English law any ambiguity is interpreted in favour of the defendant. I wonder if Dutch law is the same?

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:05 am

Barry Plumb has been trying to amass information from contacts on the continent and I will be publishing it in the next (May) issue. It will not be definitive because we simply do not have the time to contact each and every NAA - anybody who has tried to contact some of them re flying permission, knowing the right department to contact, will know what a frustrating and time consuming job that can be. If anybody out there has the time and inclination to do that job then please get in touch.
What we will have is a guide to what we believe the actual situation is as of now.

Mike Cross · Post by **Mike Cross** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:50 am

It would be interesting to be able to read the Dutch original as there seems to be more wording than the English translation.

The English translation is inaccurate. The requirement is for an ELT (a PLB is not acceptable) to be carried.

If the first C of A was issued after July 1st 2008 then the ELT must be automatically activated.

Nick Allen · Post by **Nick Allen** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:54 pm

Is it surprising that the Netherlands want to take such a strict line with these devices? I mean look at their vast mountain ranges, and huge tracts of uninhabited land...

Post by **John Dean** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:39 pm

Mike Cross wrote:The English translation is inaccurate.

Thanks Mike. That makes much more sense now.

Donald Walker · Post by **Donald Walker** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:09 pm

From the AOPA BB:

"Spoke to Mr ELT at AIS, Schipol. His official stance was that the PLB can be a PORTABLE device (not 'Personal' as in hill walkers?) and must be registered with the State official agency (is RAF Kinloss)."

Donald

Mike Cross · Post by **Mike Cross** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:15 pm

An interesting post with no substance behind it.

PLB's are not currently legal for use on land in the UK (go figure!).

A MCGA spokesman from Plymouth was on Radio 4 a day or two ago saying that they are currently only legal for aviation and marine use. The piece was prompted by a lady who runs a horse trekking business and was pulled from her horse and had her leg broken when it caught in a gate latch as the horse was passing through. Luckily she had a mobile and was in coverage but wants PLB usage extended because they will work in areas not covered by the mobile network.

MCGA spkesman said the authorities were worried by false activations but were considering the idea with OFCOM.

Rum idea of Mr ELT. Hill Walkers in Holland?

Donald Walker · Post by **Donald Walker** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:44 pm

The reason given in AIC-B 07/08 for not accepting PLBs is that they are not activated on impact, yet it goes on to say that GA aircraft, including MLA, must carry an ELT of any type. This is strange, because an ELT-S is manually activated.

The French, on the other hand, recognise in A/C 108/08 that ULM (MLA)are not necessarily compatible with the ELT(A) activation characteristics.

All very confusing.

Donald

Barry Plumb · Post by **Barry Plumb** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:37 pm

Brian was correct in his earlier post. We have been gathering data from European Countries on their interpretation of the revision to ICAO annex 6, relating to the carriage of ELTs or PLBs

We have a number of annecdotal responses from within Europe, but we feel that we really need to confirm the actual requirements with the various European NAAs before we publish guidance to members via the web site.

Work is in hand to gather the information required and we will confirm our findings to members via the web site just as soon as we can.

Kind Regards

Barry Plumb

Terry Dann · Post by **Terry Dann** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:27 am

The UK exemption expires on 1st May 2009 - does anyone know what will happen after that? I see the UK sales of PLBs are going through the roof at the moment so I assume there is knowledge or anticipation of mandatory use in the UK - at least for flights which are 10 mins or more gliding time from land. I have been unable to find anything on the CAA web site. Can anyone help to clarify?

Terry