Would this prevent a few or a lot of infringements?

Jonathan Smith · Post by **Jonathan Smith** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:33 pm

A £150 moving map GPS with CAA (NATS) charts and a detailed VFR airspace definition including glider sites, minor airfields, microlight sites, danger areas and parachute DZs which generated warnings on approaching and alarms on entering CAS. The package would come with a free monthly update service. The package would be rolled out with an education package as to how to effectively integrate the tool with traditional navigation methods

I would be extremely interested in your thoughts before throwing resource at turning this concept in reality.

Simon Clifton · Post by **Simon Clifton** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:18 pm

Jon

There are some important features to include before we can answer this:

1) It must have a big bright sunlight-readable display
2) It must be dead easy to update the maps
3) Its got to work on batteries and/or panel power
4) Its got to be quite a lot better, cheaper, or faster than MemoryMap
5) Flight planning and routing would be a major advantage
6) Airspace warnings must be 'appropriate'
7) Could it be used outside UK?

Cheers

Simon C
~~~~~~

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:23 pm

Jonathan, sounds a good idea but the problem is we do not know what category of pilot is most likely to be involved in infringing, and what level of equipment his aircraft is likely to have. If it is club flyers in non GPS equipped aircraft then maybe it would save lots. If it isn't then it possibly wont save any! I already have a GPS that cost a deal more than £150 and doesn't do near half of the one you propose, let me know when I can buy one and I'll send you a cheque!

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:08 pm

Jonathan,

said product would indeed be usefull, and fill a market niche.

There are already a number of jobbies out there that meet that spec, the Navigo PDA and the Mio being two that spring to mind.

They are both "capable" of running Memory Map, however getting it installed and working is where the fun starts, you soon realise that these products are cheap because customer support is next to non-existent. I have spent the last week trying to get memory map to install on a Road Angel Navigator 7000, 15 hours of frustration. I could get an evening job in a pub and earn the cost of a 296 quicker than get that knobbin thing going.

Now we move on to features, what's the point of having a CAA map on a PDA, there is far too much detail, I have tried out the CAA half mil memory map on a small laptop, it's useless, very difficult to see points of interest among the clutter of map detail, it also lacks a HSI type gadget which is a must.

By far the best PDA based GPS is the Flightmaster GPS for Palm devices

see http://www.flightmaster.aero/

It's excellent, it has moving map, which only shows aeronautical points of interest.

I have corresponded with kevin Haines, the guy who designed it, and he is unwilling to do a port to Windows Mobile.

Perhaps it's time to get the LAA to romance him, he is a PPL who lives somewhere down round Bristol.

Post by **John Dean** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:16 pm

I have been using my trusty Garmin 90 for about ten years and have found it very useful for confirming my finger is on the right place on the map on my knee.

Just recently I acquired a Navigo 4.3 road GPS for just less than £50 and hacked it to run Memory Map which was about £20 for the Southern England map .I have found it very valuable for confirming that I am indeed not infringing controlled airspace especially around the Heathrow Zone.

I, therefore, feel there is much merit in Jonathon's suggestion providing it can be provided to those that need it. My experience is that most LAA aircraft already have a GPS. Certainly at our airstrip where, of the ten based aircraft, seven are fitted with much more sophisticated systems than mine and the other two aircraft have not flown in the last five years.

It would be interesting to know more information on those that infringe and whether they are already using a GPS.

Simon Clifton · Post by **Simon Clifton** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:27 pm

Who holds the vector data for the CAA 1/4 mil and 1/2 mil charts?

NATS?

Now, that's worth running on a moving map device

Simon C
~~~~~~

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:17 pm

The annoyance is that memory map appear to have an exclusive deal with the OS to sell digital copies of their maps. This precludes anybody else working on better OS map based nav systems.

memory map is probably fine for naval charts, and folks who have time to to sit on a rock and poke around but it's bloody useless in the air as a primary navigation source. it's 40% of a working solution.

I guess it really needs someone to go to memory map and offer to work with them to come up with a better product, the trouble is that we are a minority market, I guess they make most of their money out of survey companies, local auths etc.

The total UK market for GA GPS systems is probably less than 1000 units per year, so the development has to be paid for from a very small kitty, you don't get a lot of good sw developer time for £50k

tnowak · Post by **tnowak** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:54 am

I posted this on another BB:

What about designing a box without the distraction of a moving map display (lots of them already on the market) and other flight planning gizmos? Something along the lines of a very simple display (or three LEDs) showing Green, Amber or Red status.
Green: clear of CAS
Amber: within xx NM of CAS (2 NM?)
RED: In CAS
You still use your database and GPS derived position to determine which colour to display. Perhaps with a bit of basic maths processing you could also display an "arrow" symbol to show the direction of CAS. I suppose what I am suggesting is a bit like those transponder receivers - detects another transponding aircraft and displays relative position of target. Only difference this time is the " target" is CAS.
Perhaps providing the ability for the user to enter QNH would allow the altitude detecting function for vertical CAS to be more accurate? Could be liable to finger trouble if the wrong QHN is entered? Add a pressure detecting transducer for auto determination?
Tony Nowak

steveneale · Post by **steveneale** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:23 pm

tnowak wrote:I posted this on another BB:

What about designing a box without the distraction of a moving map display (lots of them already on the market) and other flight planning gizmos?

Yeh! that would be cheating wouldn't it.

all those distracting flashing boxes saying "inside airspace". I give up!!

Dave Hall · Post by **Dave Hall** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:04 am

Quite a few pilots have bought the cheaper Garmin units even though Garmin seem happy to provide the hardware, but not a sufficiently detailed database unless you spend more.
Maybe because it's the Atlantic database it can't give the finer points for the UK, but most UK 'recreational' pilots don't fly abroad anyway.

Not even the best GPS system will stop some people going up in aircraft without using the skills needed to avoid airspace infringements. However, a simple but adequate device might reduce the number of incursions, and the cheaper GPS units sell quite well.

Good luck with the idea, Jonathan.