On a serious note Brian can I ask a straight forward question please.
I WOULD like to go to Sywell for at least one day out of the three.( which is why I negotiated the change of date for St.Omer.)
Now I'm not being difficult (for a change) but due to my hectic lifestyle and current familly comittments , I am not sure at this stage which day that will be and in reality , probably won't know untill the evening before I go.
So what is the the correct protocol in a situation like that? Do I wait and hope allthe slots aren't gone or do I book all three days now in the knowledge that I will probably waste two and maybe prevent someone else from going?
SLOTS
Moderators: John Dean, Moderator
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Nick Allen
- Posts: 456
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am
- Location: Oxford
- Contact:
J.C., As the slots appear from the Sywell website to be allocated at 1 minute intervals from 10.00 to 18.00, that's 480 slots per day. I can't believe these are all going to be pre-booked, so I would suggest you do what it says on the website:
Personally, I think the danger with slots is that there may be lots of people milling around aimlessly, waiting their turn, whereas I'd rather simply a published joining procedure...but if slots it is, then hey, better than no fly-in at all!
"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me." Emo Philips
This system would clearly benefit from people promptly cancelling slots if they can't use them -- a common courtesy, I would have thought, and presumably easy with the online system.if you are unable to predict your arrival time just book a slot late in the day
Personally, I think the danger with slots is that there may be lots of people milling around aimlessly, waiting their turn, whereas I'd rather simply a published joining procedure...but if slots it is, then hey, better than no fly-in at all!
"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me." Emo Philips
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Brian Hope
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:28 pm
- Location: Sheerness Kent
Rob, my apologies if I offended you. My comment was simply meant to say that there is absolutely no point in continually berating an arrangement that cannot be changed. We have been presented with a slot system and the reasons for it have been explained. To Sywell's credit they intend operating it in as flexible a manner as anyone could possibly wish. Is it ideal - no it isn't, but in the circumstances I believe it will be perfectly workable and cause little or no inconvenience to those of us flying in.
John, I am not running the Sywell arrivals so the obvious answer is how do I know what you should do. My personal solution would be to ring them and ask - 01604 644917
Charlie I know Kemble was a disaster, but that was because of the way it was handled by Kemble and should not be taken as indicative of how all slot systems will turn out. It would be a real shame if members were to miss out on an opportunity to see your lovely Swallow when in reality the slot system will probably turn out to be a non event.
John, I am not running the Sywell arrivals so the obvious answer is how do I know what you should do. My personal solution would be to ring them and ask - 01604 644917
Charlie I know Kemble was a disaster, but that was because of the way it was handled by Kemble and should not be taken as indicative of how all slot systems will turn out. It would be a real shame if members were to miss out on an opportunity to see your lovely Swallow when in reality the slot system will probably turn out to be a non event.
Well I've not yet been to a fly-in, I never went to one of the 'old' rallies so I have nothing to compare against.
My 2p worth is that all the complaining is pretty off-putting to a 'newbie' like me. It seems to me that this 'slot' system is what the owners of the venue are insisting on, and if its not there then no event and I want to try this for myself....
So, I've booked the plane for the weekend and I have booked myself a slot. The booking process was totally painless and it seems like it will be flexible with conditions on the day, maybe it wont be as good as the 'old' events..... but is anything ever as good as it used to be?
I'm hoping there will be a good turn out, and maybe it will be a foundation for something bigger next year... I will just play my small part.
Now to hit the simulator and practice arriving at 11.31
precisely.
Chris
My 2p worth is that all the complaining is pretty off-putting to a 'newbie' like me. It seems to me that this 'slot' system is what the owners of the venue are insisting on, and if its not there then no event and I want to try this for myself....
So, I've booked the plane for the weekend and I have booked myself a slot. The booking process was totally painless and it seems like it will be flexible with conditions on the day, maybe it wont be as good as the 'old' events..... but is anything ever as good as it used to be?
I'm hoping there will be a good turn out, and maybe it will be a foundation for something bigger next year... I will just play my small part.
Now to hit the simulator and practice arriving at 11.31
precisely.Chris
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mcfadyeanda
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:23 am
The problem with the slot system at Aero Expo was that acccess to the booking facility was withdrawn a few days before the event (this wasn't the case last year). So any cancellations (which needed to be made directly via telephone) could not be picked up and filled by others.
I hope Sywell don't follow-suite.
Duncan.
I hope Sywell don't follow-suite.
Duncan.
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Nigel Hitchman
- Posts: 357
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:10 pm
- Location: Hinton in the hedges
I agree with Charlie that the slot system totally ruined Kemble G-VFWE, it was very quiet most of the day with big gaps between arrivals their FISO service could easily have coped with treble the numbers, although the parking area allocated could not have. There will have to be a serious re-think for next year otherwise this event will have died. The previous G-VFWE booking system was better but also flawed as even when they had 700 bookings and people were being denied, still only 300 aircrat turned up.
Aero Expo was a farce too, all the slots were taken, but less than 2/3 of the aircraft turned up, in mostly excellent weather! arrival rates were very slow, but radio chatter was a nightmare with all the reporting ATC wanted, together with having to give landing clearance and pilots having to aknowledge.
just compare these with excellent events with no slots like Popham and Spamfield.
The 500 aircraft limit Brian mentions is a legend, but untrue, it came from the old limit that G-VFWE set themselves and how they justified their operation. But they did have full Air Traffic control, but simpler procedures and only single runway operations- no symultaneous landing on the hard and grass like we had at the Rally. They had to satisfy a lot of the same requlations that we did for the rally, but seemed to have a much cheaper set up, which they hired in, one of the main reasons being that they didnt do symultaneous operations and their traffic rate was much lower.
We had a very good system at previous rallys which worked very well, but unfortuantely CAA bureaucracy and charges made it too expensive without adding any safety benefits.
Sywell have used slots as part of their safety case for the fly-in, but seem to be operating in a much more pragmatic and sensible way with a lot of leeway for aircraft arriving outside of their slot times. The Airfield Manager is an enthusiast and keen to see the event a success with lots of aircraft and will be doing his best to ensure that everyone who turns up can land and enjoy the event as long as its safe.
So lets all book slots and turn up when its safe and convenient to do so and hopefully many will be close to their slot times, but others who cant make it at that time will be accomodated whenever they turn up. Then hopefully it will be a great success and we can improve things for next year. Making Sywell as success is virtually the only way that things will improve, if it isnt then the naysayers who dont want a rally and say no one will turn up will have won.
Aero Expo was a farce too, all the slots were taken, but less than 2/3 of the aircraft turned up, in mostly excellent weather! arrival rates were very slow, but radio chatter was a nightmare with all the reporting ATC wanted, together with having to give landing clearance and pilots having to aknowledge.
just compare these with excellent events with no slots like Popham and Spamfield.
The 500 aircraft limit Brian mentions is a legend, but untrue, it came from the old limit that G-VFWE set themselves and how they justified their operation. But they did have full Air Traffic control, but simpler procedures and only single runway operations- no symultaneous landing on the hard and grass like we had at the Rally. They had to satisfy a lot of the same requlations that we did for the rally, but seemed to have a much cheaper set up, which they hired in, one of the main reasons being that they didnt do symultaneous operations and their traffic rate was much lower.
We had a very good system at previous rallys which worked very well, but unfortuantely CAA bureaucracy and charges made it too expensive without adding any safety benefits.
Sywell have used slots as part of their safety case for the fly-in, but seem to be operating in a much more pragmatic and sensible way with a lot of leeway for aircraft arriving outside of their slot times. The Airfield Manager is an enthusiast and keen to see the event a success with lots of aircraft and will be doing his best to ensure that everyone who turns up can land and enjoy the event as long as its safe.
So lets all book slots and turn up when its safe and convenient to do so and hopefully many will be close to their slot times, but others who cant make it at that time will be accomodated whenever they turn up. Then hopefully it will be a great success and we can improve things for next year. Making Sywell as success is virtually the only way that things will improve, if it isnt then the naysayers who dont want a rally and say no one will turn up will have won.
Nigel,
Although Aero Expo is not our gig, I had discussions with the organisers (who are not the aerodrome operators) to try and increase the number of slots available - but to no avail. Further discussions on this topic are planned because we both want more LAA members to be able to fly in.
However, the aerodrome operators are responsible for the operation of the ATC unit, which is full ATC with Tower. The slot issue is between the organisers of Aero Expo and the operators of Wycombe.
The circuits, arrivals and departures at Wycombe are quite specific for noise abatement. PPR is always required along with a briefing. The procedures are well described in the Flight Guides so any competent pilot should not have difficulty. The R/T requirements you mentioned are standard phraseology so I am surprised that you found the R/T a nightmare.
The morning slots were booked up on all three days but after lunch very few were taken. So, not quite a farce. I will do what I can to improve things for next year. In addition to increasing the number of slots, I will request clarification of the process to be followed if you have a slot but, on the day, need to arrive earlier, later or cancel, or don't have a slot but want to enquire about PPR on the day.
The number of slots at Aero Expo was based on 3 arrivals per 5 minutes, which, by our standards, and compared with Popham, is not a lot - but that's like comparing apples and pears.
It would be more of a farce if the LAA Rally was held at a venue where the number of potential visiting aircraft could not be catered for, for whatever reason, be it the slot system, ATC type, a/c parking limitations, camping, facilities etc. etc.
Regards,
Chris
Although Aero Expo is not our gig, I had discussions with the organisers (who are not the aerodrome operators) to try and increase the number of slots available - but to no avail. Further discussions on this topic are planned because we both want more LAA members to be able to fly in.
However, the aerodrome operators are responsible for the operation of the ATC unit, which is full ATC with Tower. The slot issue is between the organisers of Aero Expo and the operators of Wycombe.
The circuits, arrivals and departures at Wycombe are quite specific for noise abatement. PPR is always required along with a briefing. The procedures are well described in the Flight Guides so any competent pilot should not have difficulty. The R/T requirements you mentioned are standard phraseology so I am surprised that you found the R/T a nightmare.
The morning slots were booked up on all three days but after lunch very few were taken. So, not quite a farce. I will do what I can to improve things for next year. In addition to increasing the number of slots, I will request clarification of the process to be followed if you have a slot but, on the day, need to arrive earlier, later or cancel, or don't have a slot but want to enquire about PPR on the day.
The number of slots at Aero Expo was based on 3 arrivals per 5 minutes, which, by our standards, and compared with Popham, is not a lot - but that's like comparing apples and pears.
It would be more of a farce if the LAA Rally was held at a venue where the number of potential visiting aircraft could not be catered for, for whatever reason, be it the slot system, ATC type, a/c parking limitations, camping, facilities etc. etc.
Regards,
Chris
032850
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Nigel Hitchman
- Posts: 357
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:10 pm
- Location: Hinton in the hedges
Chris,
I know that the slot system at Aero Expo was the responsibility of Wycombe tower, not the aero expo organisers, but that is not the point. The point is that by imposing such a system the number of aircraft that could attend was severly restricted. And it is even worse than what might be expected in theory, because many of the aircraft that did have slots didnt turn up (about a third)
I agree the circuit at Wycombe shouldnt give anyone a problem, but dont think its the same as in the flight guides (mine at home is an old one- new one in the aircraft, my flight guide give 24 right hand circuit, for aero expo it was left hand)
RT was no problem for me, except getting a word in, despite there being little traffic! Not really standard as they wanted everyone to use their slot numbers instead of callsigns, invariably half the aircraft forgot at one time or another and so did the controllers! Im told they are thinking of scrapping this idea!
While it might be "standard" to report Stokenchurch, then overhead, then downwind, then final, all aknowledged by ATC and then have to be cleared to land and aknowledge and then be told to go to ground freq and aknowledge, this is an awful lot of radio chatter for one aircraft movement.
This is why it was sometimes impossible to get a call in, despite the actual landing rate being slow. Perhaps this is why they had so few slots because this was the maximum that they could cope with on the radio with these procedures, whereas they could cope with far more aircraft, more safely with less radio chatter.
If they employed a similar procedure to what we had for the rally, eg an ATIS and then only one call on final and landing clearance was implicit if you werent told to go around, you could have many times more aircraft with no problems. At least one of the Booker controllers has worked the Rally, so Im sure it could be organised and they would be capable, but no doubt this would incur much cost from the CAA to change from their day to day procedure!
You write as though you have something to do with the aero-expo organisation, if so perhaps you can suggest this to them.
Yes they couldnt get up to previous rally numbers at booker but you could maybe cope with 100 an hour with good ground planning rather than 36 and Id imagine you could park 500 aircraft there if you wanted to.
Agree with your last comment, which is why particular airfields have been chosen for the rally. When it was going to be a full Rally (whatever that is!) at Sywell, the experts reckoned you could easily park 900 plus aircraft there at one time without double parking and everything else was going to be in place.
I know that the slot system at Aero Expo was the responsibility of Wycombe tower, not the aero expo organisers, but that is not the point. The point is that by imposing such a system the number of aircraft that could attend was severly restricted. And it is even worse than what might be expected in theory, because many of the aircraft that did have slots didnt turn up (about a third)
I agree the circuit at Wycombe shouldnt give anyone a problem, but dont think its the same as in the flight guides (mine at home is an old one- new one in the aircraft, my flight guide give 24 right hand circuit, for aero expo it was left hand)
RT was no problem for me, except getting a word in, despite there being little traffic! Not really standard as they wanted everyone to use their slot numbers instead of callsigns, invariably half the aircraft forgot at one time or another and so did the controllers! Im told they are thinking of scrapping this idea!
While it might be "standard" to report Stokenchurch, then overhead, then downwind, then final, all aknowledged by ATC and then have to be cleared to land and aknowledge and then be told to go to ground freq and aknowledge, this is an awful lot of radio chatter for one aircraft movement.
This is why it was sometimes impossible to get a call in, despite the actual landing rate being slow. Perhaps this is why they had so few slots because this was the maximum that they could cope with on the radio with these procedures, whereas they could cope with far more aircraft, more safely with less radio chatter.
If they employed a similar procedure to what we had for the rally, eg an ATIS and then only one call on final and landing clearance was implicit if you werent told to go around, you could have many times more aircraft with no problems. At least one of the Booker controllers has worked the Rally, so Im sure it could be organised and they would be capable, but no doubt this would incur much cost from the CAA to change from their day to day procedure!
You write as though you have something to do with the aero-expo organisation, if so perhaps you can suggest this to them.
Yes they couldnt get up to previous rally numbers at booker but you could maybe cope with 100 an hour with good ground planning rather than 36 and Id imagine you could park 500 aircraft there if you wanted to.
Agree with your last comment, which is why particular airfields have been chosen for the rally. When it was going to be a full Rally (whatever that is!) at Sywell, the experts reckoned you could easily park 900 plus aircraft there at one time without double parking and everything else was going to be in place.
Nigel,
Yes, I was involved with Aero Expo from the HQ end, working with the Royal Berkshire Strut. Great fun.
As I said, I will be seeking to improve matters next year - but the reality is that full ATC often requires more radio calls. So, is it feasible to downgrade to A/G or FIS for the period of an event such as Aero Expo, and dispense with slots? Or has regulation changed such that we will never be able to hold a traditional Rally without slots and slot limitations in the future, regardless of where it's held?
It's an interesting point about Sywell coping with 900 a/c when the max possible is 480/day using the slot system (assuming one a/c arrived every minute between 9 and 5). Allowing for less traffic during the afternoon, fair weather and a no show rate of 25% would realise closer to 300 arrivals. That's quite a few - but Sywell appears to be rather optimistic in claiming "and hundreds (possibly thousands) of aircraft" on their website.
Does anyone know how this figure compares with the figures for daily arrivals at previous Rallies without slots?
Chris
Yes, I was involved with Aero Expo from the HQ end, working with the Royal Berkshire Strut. Great fun.
As I said, I will be seeking to improve matters next year - but the reality is that full ATC often requires more radio calls. So, is it feasible to downgrade to A/G or FIS for the period of an event such as Aero Expo, and dispense with slots? Or has regulation changed such that we will never be able to hold a traditional Rally without slots and slot limitations in the future, regardless of where it's held?
It's an interesting point about Sywell coping with 900 a/c when the max possible is 480/day using the slot system (assuming one a/c arrived every minute between 9 and 5). Allowing for less traffic during the afternoon, fair weather and a no show rate of 25% would realise closer to 300 arrivals. That's quite a few - but Sywell appears to be rather optimistic in claiming "and hundreds (possibly thousands) of aircraft" on their website.
Does anyone know how this figure compares with the figures for daily arrivals at previous Rallies without slots?
Chris
032850
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Nigel Hitchman
- Posts: 357
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:10 pm
- Location: Hinton in the hedges
Chris,
Im not an ATC expert, but from my knowledge of fly-ins and previous experience helping on the fringes of ATC at the rally, I would say that lots is still possible.
The Rally used to run as full air traffic, but with various exemptions giving the procedures that we had. ie the controllers had full control, but they didnt need to say anything unless it was necessary to vary people from the published procedure eg to tell them to go around or to land on the other runway, this worked very well with no slots for many year.
In the last couple of years the CAA decided that although they approved of our procedures, they thought it was so far removed from "normal" full air traffic control, that we couldnt call it that. Instead it was "downgraded" to a FISO service, but it was effectivly exactly the same. One advantage of this was that it was cheaper as CAA fees for testing and issueing FISO licences are cheaper than that for full Controllers.
And before you ask, why were our controllers having to be re tested ever year when they were already full time professional controllers elsewhere, than thats a good question, but thats the way of the CAA. Remember their prime function is to make money!
The CAA were happy with these procedures, but it cost a lot of money, not just the licences, but also for all of the radio equipment and recording equipment that were required. (however it was a lot less than that spent on toilets and showers, or a few other things!)
The other thing the CAA inferred was that they were happy for these procedures and this many aircraft with the current core of controllers, if it was a new team maybe they would need to prove themselves before they could handle the same numbers in the same way. But we were talking of 1000 aircraft arriving in a day, or 500 plus departing in less than two hours.
There is no regulation that any fly-in has to have slots, no CAA requirement for them at all. At the fly-ins where slots are required this is something that individual airfield operators have decided for their own reasons. In some cases this may form part of what the operator does to get CAA approval, for others it isnt part of it at all.
Some do it to limit the numbers, but you dont need slots for this, just a limited number of advanced bookings allowed, but all can come whenever they like. (as G-VFWE was)
At the Air Britain fly-in slots are required because the council want them, bookings are taken by the Squadron and I dont think "air traffic" are even aware of them, there is certainly no mentioning of slot number when you speak to the radio operator.
So my conclusion is that it certainly is still possible to have a rally type event without slots and with whatever "air traffic" is appropriate. But if you are going to have a really big event, like the rally, then the CAA will get involved and you will have to convince them.
As far as Sywell is concerned given their slot flexibility and the fact that people could arrive over 3 days, I think "hundreds is a true statement given good weather. Possible a thousand maybe optimistic, but with excellent weather and more enthusiasm you never know!
I dont have the exact numbers for Rallys, they do exist.
But I remember at the first Kemble, which was the largest we had something like around 100 arrivals on Thursday, another 800 on Friday 700 Saturday and 200 Sunday.
Im not an ATC expert, but from my knowledge of fly-ins and previous experience helping on the fringes of ATC at the rally, I would say that lots is still possible.
The Rally used to run as full air traffic, but with various exemptions giving the procedures that we had. ie the controllers had full control, but they didnt need to say anything unless it was necessary to vary people from the published procedure eg to tell them to go around or to land on the other runway, this worked very well with no slots for many year.
In the last couple of years the CAA decided that although they approved of our procedures, they thought it was so far removed from "normal" full air traffic control, that we couldnt call it that. Instead it was "downgraded" to a FISO service, but it was effectivly exactly the same. One advantage of this was that it was cheaper as CAA fees for testing and issueing FISO licences are cheaper than that for full Controllers.
And before you ask, why were our controllers having to be re tested ever year when they were already full time professional controllers elsewhere, than thats a good question, but thats the way of the CAA. Remember their prime function is to make money!
The CAA were happy with these procedures, but it cost a lot of money, not just the licences, but also for all of the radio equipment and recording equipment that were required. (however it was a lot less than that spent on toilets and showers, or a few other things!)
The other thing the CAA inferred was that they were happy for these procedures and this many aircraft with the current core of controllers, if it was a new team maybe they would need to prove themselves before they could handle the same numbers in the same way. But we were talking of 1000 aircraft arriving in a day, or 500 plus departing in less than two hours.
There is no regulation that any fly-in has to have slots, no CAA requirement for them at all. At the fly-ins where slots are required this is something that individual airfield operators have decided for their own reasons. In some cases this may form part of what the operator does to get CAA approval, for others it isnt part of it at all.
Some do it to limit the numbers, but you dont need slots for this, just a limited number of advanced bookings allowed, but all can come whenever they like. (as G-VFWE was)
At the Air Britain fly-in slots are required because the council want them, bookings are taken by the Squadron and I dont think "air traffic" are even aware of them, there is certainly no mentioning of slot number when you speak to the radio operator.
So my conclusion is that it certainly is still possible to have a rally type event without slots and with whatever "air traffic" is appropriate. But if you are going to have a really big event, like the rally, then the CAA will get involved and you will have to convince them.
As far as Sywell is concerned given their slot flexibility and the fact that people could arrive over 3 days, I think "hundreds is a true statement given good weather. Possible a thousand maybe optimistic, but with excellent weather and more enthusiasm you never know!
I dont have the exact numbers for Rallys, they do exist.
But I remember at the first Kemble, which was the largest we had something like around 100 arrivals on Thursday, another 800 on Friday 700 Saturday and 200 Sunday.
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Steve Brown
- Posts: 257
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am
I'm genuinely unaware of what the law is / rules are on running a 'rally'.
Being hypothetical, suppose I had a big field that I wanted to run a rally at - using the 28 day rule - and none of the 700 or so a/c who wanted to arrive had a radio or wanted to use a radio . No ATC or signal lamps either. What restrictions would there be on the owner and under what rules / legislation.
Presumably there is something (what though?) that kicks in at an established licensed airfield. Is it possible for it to declare itself unlicenced for a week end and act as a bare field using no radio ATC or any control and leave it up to pilots to arrive under their own initiative & risk.
Guess the point I'm making is where do lines get drawn where ATC is 'required', slots or limits on numbers are placed etc etc and where does all that info exist?
Being hypothetical, suppose I had a big field that I wanted to run a rally at - using the 28 day rule - and none of the 700 or so a/c who wanted to arrive had a radio or wanted to use a radio . No ATC or signal lamps either. What restrictions would there be on the owner and under what rules / legislation.
Presumably there is something (what though?) that kicks in at an established licensed airfield. Is it possible for it to declare itself unlicenced for a week end and act as a bare field using no radio ATC or any control and leave it up to pilots to arrive under their own initiative & risk.
Guess the point I'm making is where do lines get drawn where ATC is 'required', slots or limits on numbers are placed etc etc and where does all that info exist?
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steveneale
- Posts: 294
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am
- Location: Bristol'ish
CAP403 is the CAA document though I have been looking at it recently for other purposes and nothing much has changed of late. It is very vague about "rallies". It is really for airshows etc. I think recent airside restrictions are borne out of fear of litigation not anything new in health and safety. Fear of litigation is the modern cancer and it is eating away at airfields and organisations like LAA. Popham took a brave decision and their microlight fair was just like an old rally with full access airside. No one died or even got close to a prop. It was very impressive though too many yellow jackets on visitors. There is nothing we can do this year but next year when (if) it's our baby some pragmatic decisions about risk will have to be taken or we won't get the attendance we need.Steve Brown wrote:I'm genuinely unaware of what the law is / rules are on running a 'rally'.
Steve