London LARS Update (aka Farnborough N,E,W)
Moderators: John Dean, Moderator
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FlyOnTrack
- Posts: 142
- Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:47 pm
- Contact:
London LARS Update (aka Farnborough N,E,W)
With the London Lars settling in all round London (callsign Farnborough Radar), there's an update giving info and service data via a "glossy" on flyontrack home page - and if you are in a survey filling mood, how to contribute your thoughts on it. See http://www.flyontrack.co.uk and check Hot News on the home page.
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Kelvin Denize
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:49 pm
- Location: London
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FlyOnTrack
- Posts: 142
- Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:47 pm
- Contact:
Both the 'self involved' listening squawk scheme and the completely separate round London LARS are 'saving' accidental airspace busts, which of course means both ATC and pilots are happy. (win-win).
If you look at number 8 in the list of radar replays on flyontrack, you'll see an airspace bust saved from become a problem within seconds of it happening, all sorted out due to a listening squawk:
http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/content/radar.asp
The auto-software (CAIT) spots the too-early climb and turns the radar blip purple, the Luton controller contacts the guy to ask him to descend, he does, everyone happy, no follow up.
When I get a minute, I'm hoping to put up a simple chart up on FlyOntrack showing manual interventions by Farnborough - ie: where they were concerned enough to warn an aircraft on a service with them that they were about to infringe.
If you look at number 8 in the list of radar replays on flyontrack, you'll see an airspace bust saved from become a problem within seconds of it happening, all sorted out due to a listening squawk:
http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/content/radar.asp
The auto-software (CAIT) spots the too-early climb and turns the radar blip purple, the Luton controller contacts the guy to ask him to descend, he does, everyone happy, no follow up.
When I get a minute, I'm hoping to put up a simple chart up on FlyOntrack showing manual interventions by Farnborough - ie: where they were concerned enough to warn an aircraft on a service with them that they were about to infringe.
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Simon Clifton
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:59 pm
- Location: Worcestershire
Irv
I read your web site with interest.
I am dilligently planning a very special trip into London City at the weekend, in my 'SEP' (with CAA and LCY permission), routing down the 'M40' corridor, then keeping south of Luton/Stanstead, turning in over the Thames crossing.
I had already decided to talk to London Information as I start out from the Midlands, changing to Thames Radar at some point in Essex, but would the Lonodon LARS (Farnborough North 132.800MHz) be a better choice for the bit around the top of the London TMA?
I'll keep the listening squawk in mind as a reserve option.
Thanks
Simon C
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I read your web site with interest.
I am dilligently planning a very special trip into London City at the weekend, in my 'SEP' (with CAA and LCY permission), routing down the 'M40' corridor, then keeping south of Luton/Stanstead, turning in over the Thames crossing.
I had already decided to talk to London Information as I start out from the Midlands, changing to Thames Radar at some point in Essex, but would the Lonodon LARS (Farnborough North 132.800MHz) be a better choice for the bit around the top of the London TMA?
I'll keep the listening squawk in mind as a reserve option.
Thanks
Simon C
~~~~~~
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FlyOnTrack
- Posts: 142
- Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:47 pm
- Contact:
Midlands to London City:
Ok, let me put my head on the block and say what I personally would do - the assumption is that I don't know the area, and I am rightly concerned that getting lost might cause problems. I'll assume pure visual flying, but three things would be useful but not essential at all, as you will see from the 'easy-fly plan' later:
Useful, not essential:
1) I'd like any hand held GPS - it helps to cross-confirm everything I see. To be absolutely honest, as I am not using the GPS to drive me, I'd even do it with an out of date database as the towns won't have moved (but don't take that comment out of context, all I'm saying is even an old GPS would be useful in the way I would use it) - and you CANNOT rely on airspace boundaries 100% on an up to date database anyway, the actual fundamental design of hand held devices mean they cannot warn you of all UK airways even with the latest updates.
2) I'd like another pilot with me to have an extra pair of eyes and doing any allocated tasks (setting squawks, radio, etc) to unload me.
3) I'd like a qtr-mil chart. Personal opinion, half-mil 'unfit for purpose' in certain areas of Class G in heavily built up areas where it might as well be a radio nav chart. However, a half-mil could still be used with the route that follows.
Now the route, I'm assuming without knowing that you need to get to Dartford from the Midlands:
Options are there on who to talk or listening squawk. I think as you are definitely going to a formal event like this I would use F'boro N on the way in preference to a listening squawk, purely because they might have some deal with the City controller to quietly alert them to inbounds early, OR they might have some 'late info' for you - for example, if there was a known isolated heavy shower at the entry point, it's not inconceivable that they would tell Farnborough to warn pilots. We've done that at Popham once when our fuel bowser broke on a busy day - we told Farnborugh, if anyone called up heading for Popham, they were also passed the fuel bowser situation so the pilots could make their own minds up early.
I heard recently of a known problem of poor reception (by the pilot) sometimes near Stokenchurch mast, but Fboro can hear you and they are onto it. As for the route there, if you are purely visual and want to follow 'land features', there are a lot of things that look like the M25 which aren't. Off the top of my head I would use Farnborough North, and this route, designed to always have a line feature to keep you safe without overload and worry:
1) come in via the railway that passes through Thame (dogleg the glider cable though or be in the descent from much higher) to be 2300' by the high ground at Princes Risborough (on the real QNH not the regional!)
2) At Princes Ris. (multi railways, high ground ridge), do not follow railway as it turns South there but continue on current heading to rejoin a different railway 5 miles ahead at Prestwood. (obviously knowing how long in time 5 miles takes helps a lot here!) Follow this new railway generally (ie: let it slightly slip off to South Amersham whilst you pass through North Amersham going due east to hit M25 near Leavesden. This means you miss the 'honey pot' of the BNN VOR used by all the VOR-ers and the GPS-ers.
3) If you keep it M25 a couple of miles on your left, and stay at 2300', you can follow it all the way to Dartford. You pass over Stapleford ATZ without busting, and miss the 1500' stub of Stansted and have an easy journey. If clearance is delayed, caution the London City CTA down to 1500' not 2500', so never more than 2 miles inside M25 whilst in that area and waiting to come in. 2300' on M25 puts you above Damyns Hall if active.
4) Caution if on return route, you have to cut off the M25 at 2300' just before Stapleford to head due west or you would clip the Stansted 1500' base, and you rejoing the M25 at the large reservoirs at Lee Valley.
Thats not the only way, others would presumably do it differently but I think that would be my quickly put together 'least worry, least workload' route.
Ok, let me put my head on the block and say what I personally would do - the assumption is that I don't know the area, and I am rightly concerned that getting lost might cause problems. I'll assume pure visual flying, but three things would be useful but not essential at all, as you will see from the 'easy-fly plan' later:
Useful, not essential:
1) I'd like any hand held GPS - it helps to cross-confirm everything I see. To be absolutely honest, as I am not using the GPS to drive me, I'd even do it with an out of date database as the towns won't have moved (but don't take that comment out of context, all I'm saying is even an old GPS would be useful in the way I would use it) - and you CANNOT rely on airspace boundaries 100% on an up to date database anyway, the actual fundamental design of hand held devices mean they cannot warn you of all UK airways even with the latest updates.
2) I'd like another pilot with me to have an extra pair of eyes and doing any allocated tasks (setting squawks, radio, etc) to unload me.
3) I'd like a qtr-mil chart. Personal opinion, half-mil 'unfit for purpose' in certain areas of Class G in heavily built up areas where it might as well be a radio nav chart. However, a half-mil could still be used with the route that follows.
Now the route, I'm assuming without knowing that you need to get to Dartford from the Midlands:
Options are there on who to talk or listening squawk. I think as you are definitely going to a formal event like this I would use F'boro N on the way in preference to a listening squawk, purely because they might have some deal with the City controller to quietly alert them to inbounds early, OR they might have some 'late info' for you - for example, if there was a known isolated heavy shower at the entry point, it's not inconceivable that they would tell Farnborough to warn pilots. We've done that at Popham once when our fuel bowser broke on a busy day - we told Farnborugh, if anyone called up heading for Popham, they were also passed the fuel bowser situation so the pilots could make their own minds up early.
I heard recently of a known problem of poor reception (by the pilot) sometimes near Stokenchurch mast, but Fboro can hear you and they are onto it. As for the route there, if you are purely visual and want to follow 'land features', there are a lot of things that look like the M25 which aren't. Off the top of my head I would use Farnborough North, and this route, designed to always have a line feature to keep you safe without overload and worry:
1) come in via the railway that passes through Thame (dogleg the glider cable though or be in the descent from much higher) to be 2300' by the high ground at Princes Risborough (on the real QNH not the regional!)
2) At Princes Ris. (multi railways, high ground ridge), do not follow railway as it turns South there but continue on current heading to rejoin a different railway 5 miles ahead at Prestwood. (obviously knowing how long in time 5 miles takes helps a lot here!) Follow this new railway generally (ie: let it slightly slip off to South Amersham whilst you pass through North Amersham going due east to hit M25 near Leavesden. This means you miss the 'honey pot' of the BNN VOR used by all the VOR-ers and the GPS-ers.
3) If you keep it M25 a couple of miles on your left, and stay at 2300', you can follow it all the way to Dartford. You pass over Stapleford ATZ without busting, and miss the 1500' stub of Stansted and have an easy journey. If clearance is delayed, caution the London City CTA down to 1500' not 2500', so never more than 2 miles inside M25 whilst in that area and waiting to come in. 2300' on M25 puts you above Damyns Hall if active.
4) Caution if on return route, you have to cut off the M25 at 2300' just before Stapleford to head due west or you would clip the Stansted 1500' base, and you rejoing the M25 at the large reservoirs at Lee Valley.
Thats not the only way, others would presumably do it differently but I think that would be my quickly put together 'least worry, least workload' route.
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Simon Clifton
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:59 pm
- Location: Worcestershire
Irv
Thanks for the response:
1) Hand-held back-up GPS - Check! (Garmin GPSMap96 Mono - great piece of kit)
2) Spare Pilot - Check! (2000 hours logged, has two working eyes, slightly aged, hope he doesn't read this!)
3) Qtr Mil Chart - Check! (Bought from LAA shop this week, to go with my brand-new 1/2 Mil one)
We will work Fboro N if we can.
Thanks again
Simon C
~~~~~~
Thanks for the response:
1) Hand-held back-up GPS - Check! (Garmin GPSMap96 Mono - great piece of kit)
2) Spare Pilot - Check! (2000 hours logged, has two working eyes, slightly aged, hope he doesn't read this!)
3) Qtr Mil Chart - Check! (Bought from LAA shop this week, to go with my brand-new 1/2 Mil one)
We will work Fboro N if we can.
Thanks again
Simon C
~~~~~~
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Simon Clifton
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:59 pm
- Location: Worcestershire
Irv
Just a quick note to say we followed your route advice, and everything fell into place beyond expectation, particularly the radio work.
We spoke to London Info, who handed us to Farnboro N (we were ready), who handed us to Thames Radar (ready again). Things were very busy on the radio the whole way down, but especially at the QEII bridge waiting for permission to enter LCY airspace. We found the radio coverage hole around Stokenchurch, and London Info asked twice to make sure that they had heard our destination properly!
Flying up the Thames was very interesting, there are some photos here:
http://flickr.com/gp/36078621@N06/3SC801
We were quite tired for the return leg, so we used listening squawks round the top of the TMA, and found our own way home once we had turned NW.
Thanks again,
Simon
~~~~~
G-MOOV
Just a quick note to say we followed your route advice, and everything fell into place beyond expectation, particularly the radio work.
We spoke to London Info, who handed us to Farnboro N (we were ready), who handed us to Thames Radar (ready again). Things were very busy on the radio the whole way down, but especially at the QEII bridge waiting for permission to enter LCY airspace. We found the radio coverage hole around Stokenchurch, and London Info asked twice to make sure that they had heard our destination properly!
Flying up the Thames was very interesting, there are some photos here:
http://flickr.com/gp/36078621@N06/3SC801
We were quite tired for the return leg, so we used listening squawks round the top of the TMA, and found our own way home once we had turned NW.
Thanks again,
Simon
~~~~~
G-MOOV