I was miffed when the "rally" date for Sywell was revealed because it clashed with my all time favourite fly in at St.Omer. I liased with the guys at St.Omer and they changed their date accordingly so that poeple could go to both events.
Then it was revealed that the "rally" was being scaled down..I was even more miffed .
Now I find they are having slots !..I hate slots , had I have known all this I would not have bothered asking St.Omer to change the dates of their event,I would have simply gone there instead .
Now I AM REALLY MIFFED
SLOTS
Moderators: John Dean, Moderator
Hi John,
I know you hate slots, but it greatly reduces the problems of running an event with limited resources. If you do not like the way Sywell are doing it then you can always stay away. I hope you do turn up, as it will be good to have a chat.
The U tern on the rally was unfortunate on many levels. It will make holding one next year a harder prospect and it has upset a lot of people who booked holiday and re arranged things to go.
Rod1
(slot booked)
I know you hate slots, but it greatly reduces the problems of running an event with limited resources. If you do not like the way Sywell are doing it then you can always stay away. I hope you do turn up, as it will be good to have a chat.
The U tern on the rally was unfortunate on many levels. It will make holding one next year a harder prospect and it has upset a lot of people who booked holiday and re arranged things to go.
Rod1
(slot booked)
021864
Slots are an answer to a problem that actually does not exist.
If an airfield implements slot times then I certainly will not bother to attend. It is a huge amount of admin for an issue which even the most inept a/g operator could achieve a better result.
If airfield management know so little about managing traffic that they roll over on this sort of request from the CAA then they do not deserve to hold these sort of events.
If an airfield implements slot times then I certainly will not bother to attend. It is a huge amount of admin for an issue which even the most inept a/g operator could achieve a better result.
If airfield management know so little about managing traffic that they roll over on this sort of request from the CAA then they do not deserve to hold these sort of events.
Pete Morris
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Captain Pulsar
- Posts: 95
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:20 pm
It does seem that slots are becoming the norm these days. Popham still seem to manage very well without them, although the circuit can be a little busy at times.
We have all witnessed the effective arrangements at past Cranfields and Kembles where the mark one eyeball has proved effective, so why the thirst for slots. Is it the regulators?
Slots would be great if you can get the weather to cooperate, but near the South Downs the mist can take a while to burn off sometimes.
I did'nt bother to go to Aero Expo at Booker because the earliest slot was mid afternoon!
As the CAA progressively lose authority to EASA I wonder if they, like so many other public bodies, are seeking to find whole new areas to regulate.
Is this going be the norm I wonder?
Rob Freestone
We have all witnessed the effective arrangements at past Cranfields and Kembles where the mark one eyeball has proved effective, so why the thirst for slots. Is it the regulators?
Slots would be great if you can get the weather to cooperate, but near the South Downs the mist can take a while to burn off sometimes.
I did'nt bother to go to Aero Expo at Booker because the earliest slot was mid afternoon!
As the CAA progressively lose authority to EASA I wonder if they, like so many other public bodies, are seeking to find whole new areas to regulate.
Is this going be the norm I wonder?
Rob Freestone
The whole slot deal is flawed. Ive got one for Duxford next Sat, but I have to say I don't like it, its at a time that I wouldn't have chosen because its all that was left, so now I have to kick my heels all morning and have to arrive at the hotest (bumpiest) part of the day.
Poeple book slots and don't go and others others get turned away for lack of slots..what a stupid system!
I was told in the past when I made the comment that I would have to leave home at 5am in order to meet a slot time that I could turn up any time as it didn't matter! (WHAT????)
I make my mind up to go somewhere on the morning of departure ,allowing for weather/ serviceability etc. but the current practice seems to be to apply for a slot as soon as an event is advertised.
This means people are booking earlier and earlier and then not turning up for various reasons.
For instance how many slots are currently available for Sywell and if I book now can I guarantee that my plane will be serviceable on that day?
This is leading to fewer arrivals at events with slots not beeing used and as soon as event organisers realise this they will be asking for payment up front when booking the slot(watch this space).
Sorry but I won't bee going to Sywell if I've got to book a slot.
Poeple book slots and don't go and others others get turned away for lack of slots..what a stupid system!
I was told in the past when I made the comment that I would have to leave home at 5am in order to meet a slot time that I could turn up any time as it didn't matter! (WHAT????)
I make my mind up to go somewhere on the morning of departure ,allowing for weather/ serviceability etc. but the current practice seems to be to apply for a slot as soon as an event is advertised.
This means people are booking earlier and earlier and then not turning up for various reasons.
For instance how many slots are currently available for Sywell and if I book now can I guarantee that my plane will be serviceable on that day?
This is leading to fewer arrivals at events with slots not beeing used and as soon as event organisers realise this they will be asking for payment up front when booking the slot(watch this space).
Sorry but I won't bee going to Sywell if I've got to book a slot.
John Cook
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Frank Parker
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:49 pm
Perhaps just another stark difference between the attitude of the FAA compared with our own CAA?Frank Parker wrote:If it works there, why not at UK events?
Whilst I am as vehemently opposed to the slot system as most people, I don't think the solution is to avoid such events. If we all do that they will cease to exist and we will all be worse off.
Surely, in the longer term, we must try to persuade the CAA that events such as Sywell do not need the expensive infrastructure which is said to be required without slot times.
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Captain Pulsar
- Posts: 95
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:20 pm
Hi John,Perhaps just another stark difference between the attitude of the FAA compared with our own CAA?
are you saying that this is as a result of a change of CAA attitudes to fly ins. What is the official policy now and is there any justification for it. I've not read anything about it. It should be strongly resisted.
Rob Freestone
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Brian Hope
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:28 pm
- Location: Sheerness Kent
Hi Rob. I'm no expert on this topic but the picture I see is that if CAA expect 500 plus aircraft at an event, they get a bit twitchy and want to see what they deem as control. In Rally times, that consisted of full ATC guys, recorded RT, and the AIC. The slot time procedure is a far less expensive means of achieving ' flow control.' What is important is the means in which the system will be operated, and Sywell appear to be taking a far more pragmatic approach than the somewhat intransigent Aero Expo arrangements.
I do agree with John that you should not be put off attending. If we are ever to get a full blown Rally in the future, low attandance this year is hardly going to bolster the cause.
I do agree with John that you should not be put off attending. If we are ever to get a full blown Rally in the future, low attandance this year is hardly going to bolster the cause.
You do not appear to understand the system that we used at the Rallies, when we were full ATC the was no element of "flow management", we simply coped with the "peaks and troughs" . For the last Rallies we changed to a modified FISO unit ( condiderably cheaper than ATC, and prompted by the CAA/ATSD ) again without flow control.Brian Hope wrote:Hi Rob. I'm no expert on this topic but the picture I see is that if CAA expect 500 plus aircraft at an event, they get a bit twitchy and want to see what they deem as control. In Rally times, that consisted of full ATC guys, recorded RT, and the AIC. The slot time procedure is a far less expensive means of achieving ' flow control.' What is important is the means in which the system will be operated, and Sywell appear to be taking a far more pragmatic approach than the somewhat intransigent Aero Expo arrangements.
I do agree with John that you should not be put off attending. If we are ever to get a full blown Rally in the future, low attandance this year is hardly going to bolster the cause.
I understand that "slot system" was insisted on for this year by the Sywell Aerodrome Management (not the FISO unit ).
If a sub-contracted pre-booked Flow Controlled Rally is what you want , fine... but it will never be able to emulate the PFA Rallies which most of us enjoyed and wished to see continue.
John Mead
Rally ATCO, FISO, A/G and PPL participater
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mcfadyeanda
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:23 am
I see slots as a rather enjoyable challenge; which would be even better if there was a prize for those landing the closest to their allocated slot time.
Maybe that would need factoring by distance travelled, and it would certainly need to be clarified as to which part of the arrival the time related to (overhead, touchdown down (permanently), end of taxi?).
I prefer slots to the system that operates at Popham on its major fly-in days, when one is largely at the mercy of the competence of others.
Duncan.
Maybe that would need factoring by distance travelled, and it would certainly need to be clarified as to which part of the arrival the time related to (overhead, touchdown down (permanently), end of taxi?).
I prefer slots to the system that operates at Popham on its major fly-in days, when one is largely at the mercy of the competence of others.
Duncan.
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Bill McCarthy
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:06 pm
- Location: Caithness
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Nigel Ramsay
- Posts: 298
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:13 pm
- Location: Middle Earth
Bill, slot times have nothing to do with 'scaling down'.
Sywell slot times are meant to be indicative of intention and i'm assured by Geoff Bell that no-one has ever been turned away for missing a slot.
We made a hard decision, based on pure financials/recession etc. For me at least one of the hardest decisions I've ever made having 'won' the rally from the EC.
Only time will tell if we got that right. Sywell are running the event, it's NOT an LAA run event and as such Sywell are doing it their way. In return, the LAA are having a free pitch for a marquee, and we are actively selling exhibitor pitches and Mike Bletsoe-Brown is kindly allowing us to keep all funds raised for seed money for a proper event in 2010.
Apart from the fact that there is no LAA Membership advantage, fees are keen, £5.00 entry (over 16) on the gate, £10.00 per plane INCLUDING ALL PASSENGERS, one fee only, subsequent t/o/arrival free.
There will be a beer hangar open until midnight, very basic camping (free) and of course camping by a/c.
This event will still have the feel of an early rally hopefully - though that depends upon a good turnout. Hopefully people will enter into the spirit and make it their event.
The bottom line is: There is NO FINANCIAL EXPOSURE to the Association during these difficult times.
That's it in a nutshell folks.
Sywell slot times are meant to be indicative of intention and i'm assured by Geoff Bell that no-one has ever been turned away for missing a slot.
We made a hard decision, based on pure financials/recession etc. For me at least one of the hardest decisions I've ever made having 'won' the rally from the EC.
Only time will tell if we got that right. Sywell are running the event, it's NOT an LAA run event and as such Sywell are doing it their way. In return, the LAA are having a free pitch for a marquee, and we are actively selling exhibitor pitches and Mike Bletsoe-Brown is kindly allowing us to keep all funds raised for seed money for a proper event in 2010.
Apart from the fact that there is no LAA Membership advantage, fees are keen, £5.00 entry (over 16) on the gate, £10.00 per plane INCLUDING ALL PASSENGERS, one fee only, subsequent t/o/arrival free.
There will be a beer hangar open until midnight, very basic camping (free) and of course camping by a/c.
This event will still have the feel of an early rally hopefully - though that depends upon a good turnout. Hopefully people will enter into the spirit and make it their event.
The bottom line is: There is NO FINANCIAL EXPOSURE to the Association during these difficult times.
That's it in a nutshell folks.
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Adrian Hatton
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:22 pm
Slots - why?
When booking in at High Wycombe on the Saturday at 1130, I noticed the arrival (invoicing) log had a load of no-shows for the earlier slots - probably about 30% of the pre-noon slots had not arrived (or not yet booked in).
A tad annoying as I had spent two days trying to get a slot and in the end cadged a lift with a mate who caught a cancellation for a 1430 arrival (as a result of a chance phone call at 9 o'clock on the day) - he nearly declined that slot as too late but but was told not to worry and just turn at any time of his choice...so we went 3hrs early !!
6 in the circuit when we got there but good airmanship and well organised arrivals by all on the two runways meant no drama for anyone ( you can tell I was P2, can't you....).
Re Sywell:
I know of several LAA members with a/c already saying they will not be going because of perceived inflexibility of the slot system, which I think is a real shame.
Regards
Adrian
A tad annoying as I had spent two days trying to get a slot and in the end cadged a lift with a mate who caught a cancellation for a 1430 arrival (as a result of a chance phone call at 9 o'clock on the day) - he nearly declined that slot as too late but but was told not to worry and just turn at any time of his choice...so we went 3hrs early !!
6 in the circuit when we got there but good airmanship and well organised arrivals by all on the two runways meant no drama for anyone ( you can tell I was P2, can't you....).
Re Sywell:
I know of several LAA members with a/c already saying they will not be going because of perceived inflexibility of the slot system, which I think is a real shame.
Regards
Adrian