Airside access at Sywell fly-in
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Bill McCarthy
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Nigel Ramsay wrote: 2. The thorny business of airside access was put to bed, finally, by our own CEO who stated quite categorically that he would not have the LAA linked in any way to the airside operations at Sywell in September. This is so that in the unlikely event of a tragedy, the ambulance chasing lawyers won't be able to point in our direction..
Nigel, do you know if the CEO intends this precept to apply next year if a rally is held, wherever it may be?
John Mead
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Nigel Ramsay
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No, he won't John. The reason being that WE will be running the event, it will be under our control. SO, we have to come up with a robust method of visitor safety control. We already have a pretty reasonable method from past rallies and with a small amount of tweaking I believe it will meet H&S requirements and be totally controllable while giving LAA members access.
The Sywell event is not under our control, hence the distancing.
Given concerns about LAA members ALL being plane savvy, remember there are NO LAA priviliges at Sywell this year and thus the airside business remains outside the arguments put forward here.
I think a 'Plane Savvy' course, preferably as an online thing will get around the LAA member issues by the way.
We cannot underestimate litigation issues (I used to own a hotel. I was hauled over the coals for allowing a chambermaid to hoover without instruction! She had decided to hoover the spiral staircase from top down, pulling the hoover down after her so it bounced and hit her on the head....my fault!).
The Sywell event is not under our control, hence the distancing.
Given concerns about LAA members ALL being plane savvy, remember there are NO LAA priviliges at Sywell this year and thus the airside business remains outside the arguments put forward here.
I think a 'Plane Savvy' course, preferably as an online thing will get around the LAA member issues by the way.
We cannot underestimate litigation issues (I used to own a hotel. I was hauled over the coals for allowing a chambermaid to hoover without instruction! She had decided to hoover the spiral staircase from top down, pulling the hoover down after her so it bounced and hit her on the head....my fault!).
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Tony Harrison-Smith
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I have been reading the above with interest as an LAA member who has never been to an LAA event. I decided to take some days off and take my caravan up to the Sywell fly-in rather than fly-in for the first event.
As there will not be acceptable airside access unless you fly-in, I will now be cancelling my caravan site reservation and not bother to visit the event. Sywell have now lost 2 people paying to visit for 2 days, not a lot I know, but I will not pay to be guided around or sit off airside.
As there will not be acceptable airside access unless you fly-in, I will now be cancelling my caravan site reservation and not bother to visit the event. Sywell have now lost 2 people paying to visit for 2 days, not a lot I know, but I will not pay to be guided around or sit off airside.
Peter, Nigel's point was that this year's Sywell is NOT being run by the LAA, hence they cannot run courses or anything else.Peter Gristwood wrote:I just can't believe what I'm reading here.
The LAA should be running an 'Airside' course?
I know there are ambulance chasers but can anyone tell me how many incidents have happened where people have come into contact with aircraft in the aircraft park over the last 10 years.
If as I believe the answer is not many, perhaps the LAA event insurance could cover it. In any event aircraft owners carry their own insurance.
We could go for zero risk, but that would mean no flyins, ever.
John Mead
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Nigel Ramsay
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Peter,
I simply suggested that an airside course would settle the very subjective argument of an LAA member's airside awareness.
Member 1 for example is a PPL with 500 hrs and his own plane.
Member 2 is a PUT currently half way through his or her training
Member 3 is a 15 year old enthusiast who has just found out about the LAA
Surely you can see that to argue that ALL LAA members are by default qualified to walk about airside is incorrect?
Also that just because there haven't been any incidents (none?) that something won't occur in the future?
You as a pilot, have a bi-annual to prove your competence, and on that basis everyone accepts you as capable of flying in and of behaving sensibly airside. A non-flying member currently is unable to demonstrate any relevant experience.
I simply suggested that an airside course would settle the very subjective argument of an LAA member's airside awareness.
Member 1 for example is a PPL with 500 hrs and his own plane.
Member 2 is a PUT currently half way through his or her training
Member 3 is a 15 year old enthusiast who has just found out about the LAA
Surely you can see that to argue that ALL LAA members are by default qualified to walk about airside is incorrect?
Also that just because there haven't been any incidents (none?) that something won't occur in the future?
You as a pilot, have a bi-annual to prove your competence, and on that basis everyone accepts you as capable of flying in and of behaving sensibly airside. A non-flying member currently is unable to demonstrate any relevant experience.
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Bill McCarthy
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So, it has gone from being introduced in our magazine -" The return of our International Rally has met with great enthusiasm, and we are determined to make it the jewel in the crown, not only in the UK but throughout Europe", to a downtuned dress rehearsal for next year, and then to something that hardly even resembles a LAA fly-in. Members being shepherded round the airside enclosure like schoolkids will gall (Hi-viz vests will no doubt be required and we will all have to hold hands in order that we don't get lost !). If we do not know how to conduct ourselves in and about an aircraft park, we should not be flying them.
"Determined to make it the jewel in the crown" - has the makings of a very damp squib.
"Determined to make it the jewel in the crown" - has the makings of a very damp squib.
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Nigel Ramsay
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Ron,
It may surprise you, but I agree with you! Sadly insurance is no longer sufficient as the ambulance chasers always follow the trail right up to the head. In this case it's our CEO which is why HE has taken the liability/risk view here.
As for us abiding by the same rules as the rest of Europe, yes of course that's true, but for some sad reason our 'rulers' interpret those rules to death. Look how generally badly the 'human Rights Act' works for most of us (unless you are an illegal immigrant or a criminal of course)?
We have indeed withdrawn from this event except with regard to a Marquee and exhibitors (fairly risk free
).
But whatever, it's still worth trying to make the best of it. The original Sywell Rallies - the forerunners of the PFA RAllies, were quite simply a fly-in over a week-end, a beer tent and a few exhibits with camping by the planes. Spectators were presumably a minor issue then. The event in September was aimed at recreating that type of event. We do have a week-end event, camping by the planes, ACCESS airside for those flying in, a Beer hangar, a buffet supper on Saturday evening, BBQ, and a few exhibits and an LAA marquee........ surely it's worth a go?
It may surprise you, but I agree with you! Sadly insurance is no longer sufficient as the ambulance chasers always follow the trail right up to the head. In this case it's our CEO which is why HE has taken the liability/risk view here.
As for us abiding by the same rules as the rest of Europe, yes of course that's true, but for some sad reason our 'rulers' interpret those rules to death. Look how generally badly the 'human Rights Act' works for most of us (unless you are an illegal immigrant or a criminal of course)?
We have indeed withdrawn from this event except with regard to a Marquee and exhibitors (fairly risk free
).But whatever, it's still worth trying to make the best of it. The original Sywell Rallies - the forerunners of the PFA RAllies, were quite simply a fly-in over a week-end, a beer tent and a few exhibits with camping by the planes. Spectators were presumably a minor issue then. The event in September was aimed at recreating that type of event. We do have a week-end event, camping by the planes, ACCESS airside for those flying in, a Beer hangar, a buffet supper on Saturday evening, BBQ, and a few exhibits and an LAA marquee........ surely it's worth a go?
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rans6andrew
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Adrian Hatton
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Nice idea Andrew,
I guess nothing will change the plans for this year but just a suggestion for the future, how about just having a marshaller(s) present prior to engine start and have him/them accompany the taxying aircraft to the 'airside' boundary. I would hope that could be seen as a reasonable compromise balancing minor inconvenience for pilots whilst hopefully allaying some of the due-care worries.
We do something similar at our local agricultural ploughing match where machinery is every bit as dangerous to the untrained as an aeroplane, yet we have full public access to the working areas (where there will be some 100 tractors of every type at work) with nominated stewards keeping an eye on things as required. Concise safety awareness notices are printed in the show catalogue and at entry points to the field. As far as I know, HSE and our insurers seem to be content with this system.
Problems in any walk of life are easy to see and dwell on, I hope that that thinking of workable solutions might be seen as more productive than moaning.
Adrian
I guess nothing will change the plans for this year but just a suggestion for the future, how about just having a marshaller(s) present prior to engine start and have him/them accompany the taxying aircraft to the 'airside' boundary. I would hope that could be seen as a reasonable compromise balancing minor inconvenience for pilots whilst hopefully allaying some of the due-care worries.
We do something similar at our local agricultural ploughing match where machinery is every bit as dangerous to the untrained as an aeroplane, yet we have full public access to the working areas (where there will be some 100 tractors of every type at work) with nominated stewards keeping an eye on things as required. Concise safety awareness notices are printed in the show catalogue and at entry points to the field. As far as I know, HSE and our insurers seem to be content with this system.
Problems in any walk of life are easy to see and dwell on, I hope that that thinking of workable solutions might be seen as more productive than moaning.
Adrian