"Take Off Tax" for GA?

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DaveWhite
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"Take Off Tax" for GA?

Post by DaveWhite » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:43 pm

Is there any further detail avaialble for this story in 'Light Aviation'?
TAKE-OFF TAX PROPOSAL

The Treasury is currently working on a pre-Budget initiative to charge a 'green' tax on all aircraft taking off from UK airspace. It has been stated that this will include ALL aircraft, not just commercial air transport operations.

Graham Newby has already had a meeting with Treasury officials. And discussions have also taken place with the Department for Transport in an effort to nip this one in the bud.
Graham, what was the agenda and outcome of your Treasury meeting, and the one with the DfT?
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Dave White
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Graham Newby
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Post by Graham Newby » Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:26 am

The meeting was to inform the Treasury what Light Aviation was all about and to try and explain how ludicrous the proposal was. A consultation is due out very soon and all the person at the Treasury was able to say when I spoke to her last week was that they have taken our meeting points into consideration when drafting the consultation and they look forward to our response. I will look at the Treasury website every day, but if anyone notices it please let me know.

Graham

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jamie_duff
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Post by jamie_duff » Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:34 am

Thanks Graham.

If there are any more taxes to pay I honestly think I'd just abandon my project and take up train spotting instead. :?
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DaveWhite
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Post by DaveWhite » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:38 pm

Thanks for your reply, Graham. I'll keep an eye out, too.

Can you expand on the discussions with the DfT as well?
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Graham Newby
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Post by Graham Newby » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:47 pm

We have just discussed the issue with the DfT to make sure they are aware of the consultation. As a different Government department they are not necessarily kept in the loop!! Give me a ring if you want to know more.

Graham

DaveWhite
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Post by DaveWhite » Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:17 pm

Thanks again, Graham. I think that's enough information until the consultation documents are released.
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John Price
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Post by John Price » Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:51 pm

Here's a thought, how are they going to know wether or not you have been flying? Given that a huge amount of aviation takes place from minor airfields or private strips.
What they need is a box in the aeroplane that would send a signal so that you registration would show up on radar. So that CAA/ HM Government could send you a bill.
HMMM.
Something that you would have to fit on ALL aircraft.

BUGGER ME!

Mode S rears its head again!

But didn't someone from the CAA recently say in a presentation " This is NOT related to airspace charging or radio carrage" and it is a popular misconception that "Mode S will allow the CAA will charge GA on a 'pay per flight' basis".

Can open. Worms everywhere!!

Well what does everyone think are these the real motives behind it all ? Or am I just an old synic ?

John Price.

Trevor Lyons
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Post by Trevor Lyons » Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:09 pm

In today's Guardian: Sir David King, who stepped down last month after seven years as Tony Blair's chief scientific advisor, is deeply concerned with global warming, but accuses many greens of being Luddites who wrongly reject technological solutions to the problem. Sir David adds that aviation has been "unfairly scapegoated".

Andrew Leak
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Post by Andrew Leak » Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:13 pm

John Price wrote:
BUGGER ME!

Mode S rears its head again!...................


John Price.

You're not far off it John, when you consider how arrogant the CAA were over the implimentation of Mode S and the fact that with a suitable 'database' (government just loves that word) aircraft can be tracked and owners billed, any kind of tax could be collected if you have all the details to hand! Desperately trying not being a cynic either, but I just don't think we're getting fairly treated in any shape or form these days. Too much regulation is going to frighten off everyone from GA in the end, unless you are a millionaire or just don't take up a hobby that can be judged to have a detrimental effect on the 'green thinkers' mandate. Take up train-spotting? They'll probably charge for you writing down each serial number and bill you later, unless you use tree bark and vegetable ink! LOL.

steveneale
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Post by steveneale » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:44 pm

Don't forget MODE S needs a MODE S ground radar to work. Outside the SSR veil no one sees you. So it is no good for charging as you could simply fly out of range and no one would ever know.

John Price
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Post by John Price » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:36 pm

Fair point Steve,
That would raise three interesting questions

" What is the current SSR coverage at say 1000' AGL over Great Britain now?
What will be the SSR Mode S coverage at 1000'AGL by say 31/12/08 ? and 31/3/12 ?
And what is the lowest height AGL that a SSR Mode S transponder will respond to the radar head ?

I imagine that they will be larger, larger, and smaller than we think.
:roll:

John.

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Captain Pulsar
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Post by Captain Pulsar » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:58 pm

I guess my log book will show no flying in year one of the biannual period, then in the second year one take off to france to complete three four hour flights then a return landing to the UK.

That way I'll only have to pay for one take off every 2 years! :lol: :P

cardiffrob
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Post by cardiffrob » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:03 am

Q. Is it mandatory to switch your Mode-S on if you have one? If it isn't on then they wouldn't be able to see you. If so, they couldn't charge you.

Is this not another example of 'not thinking ahead' in the same vein as the idea that you can't fit a mode-A/C after [whenever this year] so you'll prefer to not have anything if you can't afford mode-C.

Steve Brown
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Post by Steve Brown » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:25 am

Same type of thinking that politicians think you can use satellite tracking for road charging or offender tagging.

The signals are so weak you can pull out the aerial or paint it over or wrap the tag in tin foil and the whole thing is useless. Much like a lot of the thinking in Westminster.

They haven't grasped that GPS is based on the premise that the user wants to know where he is, so is incentived to maximise the signal.

Its a bit useless if the user doesn't want someone to know where they are!!!

Brian Hope
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Post by Brian Hope » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:25 am

At this moment in time Mode S is unlikely to become mandatory for at least five years, if at all. The current proposals, which basically cover flight in controlled airspace and yet to be established Mandatory Transponder Zones, take us to 2012, so extending the requirement to all aircraft in the open FIR will take some while longer after yet more consultation. I think any chance of using Mode S in order to charge us for flying is slim indeed, at least for a good many years.

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