Stronger VW (Not competition thread)

cardiffrob · Post by **cardiffrob** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:23 am

I thought I was hijacking the other thread so I started another one aimed at spreading info about VW upgrades.

Here is a shot of both wet and dry sump cases. Thick webs and a decent assembly for the front end that includes a proper oil filtration method. Might be easy to manufacture a new front plate to hold a larger bearing and/or a better mount for a reduction belt unit rather than the slightly weak-looking PSRUs currently available. It ought to be possible to make a VW with one of these that can run at 4000rpm and still give you more static thrust than you need. They are sending me some more info plus some stuff on water-cooled Type-1 heads.
Another company make a similar unit but it has a removable flywheel-end plate so that it could theoretically be replaced with a similar unit that uses the same bolt pattern as an O-200 engine mount.

It also includes the possibility of a remote oil sump in the same manner as the O-200 plus a strudy deck for any PSRU to bolt onto.

cardiffrob · Post by **cardiffrob** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:31 am

Removable rear plate to allow the adaption onto other gearboxes (or an O-200 engine mount?)

http://vwjim.fotopic.net/p55210099.html

Nick Allen · Post by **Nick Allen** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:09 pm

Foggy, If you want the engine to substitute for an O-200, then presumably it would be better to avoid the shift in thrust line that comes with using the various PRSUs that are knocking around...could some epicyclic gearbox serve this purpose? (Just thinking out loud...)

cardiffrob · Post by **cardiffrob** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:46 pm

Dunno. If Rotax can get one of their gadgets certified then it ought to be OK. Might it be possible to 'plug-and-play' a Rotax box onto a suitable front accessory casting? Slightly "above my pay grade", I'm afraid.

cardiffrob · Post by **cardiffrob** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:54 pm

I forgot to mention, I've been in touch with someone who deals directly with SCAT in the US and he is going to approach them with a view to supplying a bare case from which it ought to be possible to assess a plan to adapt it to aero use. Currently they are cast to take a 2500cc bore/stroke combination which ought to make circa 95hp at 3300rpm and obviously more at a gearbox'd 4000rpm. Swinging a big prop ought to give a vast improvement in staitic thrust.
Does anyone know Barry Smith enough to give him a nudge? I made the mistake of asking if he was in Lancashire. I think I might have made an error!

Rod1 · Post by **Rod1** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:20 pm

What is the weight difference between a 912uls and a “super” VW?

What is the likly cost of a "super" VW?

Rod1

cardiffrob · Post by **cardiffrob** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:10 pm

I've no doubt that the VW will be much heavier than an original VW by 20 or more lbs but the power output will be the significant factor. It might weigh as much as an O-200 but should be able to equal the power by virtue of the components being designed in the 21st century. I've never been close to a Rotax 912 so am unable to directly compare them.
The design and development of the 'super' VW components has been done by customers and racers over a period of 60 years, much more than Rotax can dream of. I asked the VW guy if a 'super' engine could be built for under £10,000 and he laughed. It appears that it would be hard to find enough expensive race components to reach anywhere near that cost! Whatis the going rate for a Rotax?

I imagine that the main stumbling block is going to be that nobody wants to invest in the tooling to make a 100+hp VW conversion for aircraft. I bought my ACRO'd VW 1835 for £500 and added a Leburg kit on top. I don't need 100hp so have little vested interest in the whole idea, although it would be great fun to get involved. I wonder if someone like GPASC or AeroVee would have already though through this scenario? Certainly SCAT haven't come across this line of enquiry before, or so it would seem.

Rod1 · Post by **Rod1** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:25 pm

“What is the going rate for a Rotax?”

Equipped, about £16k, but a second hand one is about £5k.

Prices have gone up due to the collapse of the £ v €. I got my 912uls (100 hp) 5 years ago for £9k inc vat and carriage. The bits to service it are very inexpensive. Oil filter is £8, spark plug £3, oil for 100h about £18.

Rod1

Nick Allen · Post by **Nick Allen** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:40 am

Rod, is that 16k you quote for a Rotax for the uncertified version?

ivanmanley · Post by **ivanmanley** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:25 pm

Cylinders and heads don't look any better at cooling than the stock VW. Therein lays the problem ... HP=heat. If you can't shed it, the the engine cannot produce it sustainably.

Ivan
________
Bmw progressive activity series history

Nick Allen · Post by **Nick Allen** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:07 pm

Agreed Ivan, but one of these specialist companies, Scat I think, makes individual heads for each cylinder, which look like they may cool better. Plus there's always water cooling, which obviously takes the concept further from a VW for sure...but perhaps closer to a Rotax.

Rod1 · Post by **Rod1** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:14 pm

“Rod, is that 16k you quote for a Rotax for the uncertified version?”

Yes, it is for a 912ULS. It does include everything you need, engine radiator etc. Same with the second hand price..

Rod1

Bill McCarthy · Post by **Bill McCarthy** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:19 pm

Right !! I want a LAA VW course. I don't have a VW powered aircraft but I would take up a place on such a course. I want an engine that I can strip down with confidence, tinker about with, without being taken to the cleaners for spares. I intend to move up out of the microlight three axis type next spring to something I can "go places" in. Anything with Rotax in it (especially at £16 000 ) is out of the equation.

cardiffrob · Post by **cardiffrob** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:52 pm

Last time I looked, a NEW (as in straight off the line) VW head , with valves etc, was £86. Almost worth getting a new set every 100 hours!

I'm told that a TIG welder can easily get an extra set of fins tacked on in the right place. Cooling the VW IS possible, with the right cowling method. The scuttlebutt is that not enough air gets rammed down the fins by the exhaust valves. I opened the gaps up with a fine file, as per the recommendations. The Peacock design doesn't allow for any cooling air between the valve fins at all. Maybe time for a redseign of the Peacock plans? Wider cowl to cover the valve area and a baffle plate to stop the front of the pots from shock cooling?

Method one (BAD, or at least not good)

Method 2 (Better)

cardiffrob · Post by **cardiffrob** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:58 pm

Watercooled heads, long stroke crank, decent nose bearing assembly, high comp ratio pistons etc etc etc.