Mixing Microlight and class A in the circuit.

Mike Cross · Post by **Mike Cross** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:57 pm

I want a cheap to fly permit aircraft that I can tour with my wife around Europe. It must lift at least 300kilo with fuel and be easy to fly. It must fit people 2 meters high. My PA28 can do it why can't any permit aircraft?

How about 5 seats 180hp, useful load of over 500 kg, 260 litres fuel capacity?

Oh, and it performs very well on skis and doesn't fly like a sofa.

First read this, then read this.

Rob Swain · Post by **Rob Swain** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:31 pm

Nicely put, Mike.

Mishek: most microlights and LAA permit aircraft (but not all) are 2 seaters (or less). They often do a better job at what's asked of them regarding weight, capacity and performance than many CofA 2 seaters (e.g. C150/2s).

But that's not what you are asking for.

You appear to be asking for a 2 seater permit machine to do the job of a 4 seat CofA machine (your PA28).

This doesn't seem, to me at least, to be a fair comparison.

Keep up the good work at/for Elstree.

Kelvin Denize · Post by **Kelvin Denize** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:21 pm

No, I am looking for a aircraft that does what I want from a aircraft and one I can afford.

I think everybody agrees that a PA28 is really a 2x2, I can never put more than three up anyway.

I have taken the group PA28 with myself and wife and camping gear to several flying fields. I love flying it but it is far too expensive to tour, and thats what I want to do.

When the Devon strut had their flyinn out at Belle view farm it was not a realistic proposal to fly, cost upwards of £400. The PA28 would ahve struggled with the landing distance anyway if I recall. I drove out there and camped for the night, enjoyed the event, saw the aircraft then got back in my car, packed my tent and drove home!!

I was told by the aeronica club (and no I don't fit in any of their aircraft) that I could buy a taylor craft, aeronica chief for the mid teens thousnad pounds. That it cost about £20 per hour to run, put on the very cheap permit to fly and it could land anywhere almost. You could fit two people and throw some of the luggage in the back with the tent being strapped to the understide of the wing, fill it with fuel and go and have fun. Thats what I want, thats what I can afford and that sounds like my kind of machine but I can't fit in the damn little thing!!

I have a friend with a zenair 601, he does what I just described above and parks it in some farmers field for the night. He toured it up to scotland and landed on the beach, it only burnt a few hundred pounds of fuel, well I want to do that.

I have a friend in Sweden with a PA18 cub, again burns nothing and costs nothing to run. He has ski's on his and he uses it to go to a hunting lodge somewhere very north. Fills the tank and just goes, costs him about £50. When I tried it, it damn near cost me £500 and I only just got the cessna out of the improvised landing strip!!

I will find what I want, it will just take a while......longer than the rest of you thats all.

Cheers,

Kelvin

Kelvin Denize · Post by **Kelvin Denize** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:31 pm

I best also reply to Mike,

I also don't fit in the few Jodels I have tried including Brian Hope's and a couple at the Belle view flyinn.

I came to the conclusion all French designers must have not eaten for the entire time they were designing or were just midgets?

But, I see there are more to try so try them I will and add those I fit into to my list of realistic sized aircraft. I have my list and I have a look in the varous magazines to see if any on my list have appeared each month.

I also don't have a hanger so I can't really consider cloth types but I do fit in a YAK T18 and also a Boeing Stearman, I don't have a hanger to house them nor the fuel money I guess.

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:16 am

Hi Mishek, have you tried a Jodel 1050, now that they are coming onto the Permit it would be worth a try. They have larger cockpits than the D11 series (they are 2+2) and individual adjustable front seats.

Rod1 · Post by **Rod1** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:34 am

Mishek

Have you got round to sitting in an RV10 (as I suggested on page 1). I think there is one at Terweston.

Rod1

Kelvin Denize · Post by **Kelvin Denize** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:02 am

I will get a chance to try a few RV 6 (and 10) this weekend if the weather and the flyinn works. I have set up a tryon of a RV to see if it fits and this should happen this weekend.

I have not tried the large jodels, this might be a good one if I can find one close to me. If I am lucky I might have one visit Saturday.

Cheers,

Kelvin

Rob Swain · Post by **Rob Swain** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:17 pm

Mishek wrote:I have a friend with a zenair 601, he does what I just described above and parks it in some farmers field for the night. He toured it up to scotland and landed on the beach, it only burnt a few hundred pounds of fuel, well I want to do that.

You're not going to lift your stipulated 300Kg with a Zenair 601, regardless of whether you physically fit in it or not!
601-UL usable load is 508lbs (231Kg) according to their website. This assumes you actually build the thing to the weight they actually specify. Normally factory empty weight figures are optimistic, being for an unpainted aircraft with minimal equipment. Can't find the figures for the 601-HD or HDS but I would be surprised if you could cram another 69Kg in them (legally).

Have fun with the RVs this weekend, but bear in mind the 6's have either the same, or maybe even a thirstier engine than your PA28. I'm not knocking RVs. I love my RV6, but 6 gallons of avgas per hour is not cheap, although she goes quite a long way in that hour.
The RV10 with its 2 extra, larger cylinders isn't going to be sipping the stuff either.

Nick Allen · Post by **Nick Allen** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:49 pm

With the usual proviso of taking manufacturers' data with a pinch of NaCl, Zenith quote a load of 285kg for the XL, and say here http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/cabin-xl.html "The cabin has been designed to fit both large and tall pilots (up to 6'6" in some cases)"
Getting closer, Mishek...?

gasax · Post by **gasax** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:12 pm

Most CH601HDs are a bit heavier than the manufacturers figures, but if you make the Zenith numbers of 585-590 lbs then you have 610lbs of payload.

Similarly with the XL the majority struggle to have more than 250kg 550lb) of useful load.

In the 2 seaters look at either the Christavia or Murphy Rebel is you want/need more. A light Rebel can manage 700lbs. These are 'real' numbers - unlike the C152's supposed 570lbs from the book which is usually around 490lbs in the real world.

Rod1 · Post by **Rod1** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:31 pm

Just a thought but your “specification” includes fuel in the 300kg. You will need far more fuel in an RV than in a Rotax machine. Many VLA types will lift two 85kg crew, 25kg of bags and 4 hours of fuel. This class of aircraft will cruise faster and get out of shorter strips than your PA28 on 15lph mogas. Some have adjustable peddles and seat so will cope with 6ft6in no problem.

Rod1

Kelvin Denize · Post by **Kelvin Denize** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:13 pm

If my flyinn works tomorrow I hope to get a try of some of these machines and add a few more to my list of workable aircraft. If not I have recorded them and will ask when I meet them on airfields from tiem to time.

Flew today in the beautiful PA28, Elstree to Panshanger, to Thruxton, over stonehenge, back to Panshanger and return to Elstree. Split the bill three ways which was good as including the landing it came to £365.

Still, I did have a great time!! but you can see that I can't afford to do that too often!.

Anyway, thanks for all your advice. I need to think about writting a book....flying for big dudes.

John Brady · Post by **John Brady** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:47 am

Our Jodel 1050 is configured as a 2-seater with a fold-up shelf in place of the rear footwell providing a very large baggage space. Currently we charge ourselves £80 PCM and £30 FH which is more than sufficient to cover operating and maintenance costs. It will be worth trying one for size.

John G-ARRD

Kelvin Denize · Post by **Kelvin Denize** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:46 pm

Hi All, I want to end the discussion about mixing microlights and group a in the circuit to state that the flyinn at Elstree was a big sucess.

No issues and no problems, I checked with the fiso at the end of the day and he was well impressed with all the arrivals. I have done a write up on the Elstree flyinn page in the LAA forums so I won't write more here.

I had no sucess fitting in the Jodel of Brian Hope and another I tried at the Belle View flyinn, but I would be very happy to try yours and join your group is you are in the SE UK somewhere....I will bet my luck you are all based in Orkney!!! At those prices it is what I want to fly.

I fit in a C42 and a Bulldog I have learnt from this flyinn and I have added these to my list. The bulldog is no cheaper than a PA28 but I am happy I fit in it.

Eternal CAVOK,

Kelvin Denize