I'm about to make an application to the planning authority for a certificate of lawfulness for a 172sq meter workshop in my garden. Its almost 3 times the footprint of my house as such while it is within the 50% area, height and other rules I can imagine the planners are going to have a double take at this one.
While I have researched permitted development extensively and think I have understood the rules correctly. It is no larger than swimming pools approved by planners under the permitted development rules. I would be interested in any experience in making an application under permitted development particularly the 'use' rule.
Workshop planning and Permitted Development
Moderators: John Dean, Moderator
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[email protected]
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:36 pm
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Jonathan Holland
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 3:26 pm
I think you might be mistaken about the size you are allowed 6X5 metres ie 30 square mtr, is about the biggest you can have it is not the size of the plot but the size of the house, get a copy of the allowances if you actually have any , form the planning portal site on the net. It will be very expensive to knock it all down again. DO NOT JUST BUILD. The Planners are bastards and it is very bureaucratic.
Graham
Graham
Hi
Thanks for the responses, you did read me correctly the workshop is almost 3 times the footprint of the house at 172sqm. The internal area is around 150 sqm. After partitioning of an area for equipping as a woodwork shop, wing assembly and other benches it only just leaves enough area to be able to walk around and spray a fully assembled 4 seater such as the RV10 or Zenair 801.
The other point raised was about starting work I am applying for a certificate of lawfulness and after it is agreed I will need to apply for building regulations as it is over 30sq meters. Once they are approved I still can not start work until the building controller inspects the site.
The latest government publication that is intended to clarify the law which was significantly changed a few years ago can be found here.
http://www.permitteddevelopment.org/pdf ... g-2010.pdf
The size etc is within the rules which clearly states that you are allowed to build on up 50% of your garden. The concern I have is that as the law is new its hard to find example of a similar use. I have been able to find a number of bigger buildings built in gardens under the permitted development rules, swimming pools gyms play house. What I have not been able to find is a building put to a similar use. So my concern is if my use of the building would be considered by the planners as satisfying the 'use' rules. I was hoping another LAA member had made a successful application for a certificate of lawfulness under the permitted development rules that I could show the planners and also experience of the process they could share.
Thanks for the responses, you did read me correctly the workshop is almost 3 times the footprint of the house at 172sqm. The internal area is around 150 sqm. After partitioning of an area for equipping as a woodwork shop, wing assembly and other benches it only just leaves enough area to be able to walk around and spray a fully assembled 4 seater such as the RV10 or Zenair 801.
The other point raised was about starting work I am applying for a certificate of lawfulness and after it is agreed I will need to apply for building regulations as it is over 30sq meters. Once they are approved I still can not start work until the building controller inspects the site.
The latest government publication that is intended to clarify the law which was significantly changed a few years ago can be found here.
http://www.permitteddevelopment.org/pdf ... g-2010.pdf
The size etc is within the rules which clearly states that you are allowed to build on up 50% of your garden. The concern I have is that as the law is new its hard to find example of a similar use. I have been able to find a number of bigger buildings built in gardens under the permitted development rules, swimming pools gyms play house. What I have not been able to find is a building put to a similar use. So my concern is if my use of the building would be considered by the planners as satisfying the 'use' rules. I was hoping another LAA member had made a successful application for a certificate of lawfulness under the permitted development rules that I could show the planners and also experience of the process they could share.
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mike newall
- Posts: 331
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:56 pm
- Location: N Yorkshire
To add to my previous post I do also have a concern that if no one has made a application for an outbuilding to build an aircraft I will therefore be the first and what I do could impact on other LAA and for that mater BMAA members making similar applications in the future. I think I might ring the office to see if they have any knowledge of members making an application. The last thing I want to do is mess this up and create a problem for other members in the future.
Hi Mike
Did you apply for a certificate of lawfulness either before or after you built, my understanding is that there is no legal requirement to do so, provided what you build is within the rules.
My understanding is also that the advantage of getting a certificate of lawfulness is that it makes it impossible for anyone to force you to take it down or for a 'cease of building' order to be issued if the council for example receives a complaint.
It is possible if my reading of the rules is correct for a council to force you to take it down even if its of a legal size simply because of what you are using it for. My research shows that a number of people have had this happen if they found to be running a commercial activity or using it for bedrooms or other domestic use.
Did you apply for a certificate of lawfulness either before or after you built, my understanding is that there is no legal requirement to do so, provided what you build is within the rules.
My understanding is also that the advantage of getting a certificate of lawfulness is that it makes it impossible for anyone to force you to take it down or for a 'cease of building' order to be issued if the council for example receives a complaint.
It is possible if my reading of the rules is correct for a council to force you to take it down even if its of a legal size simply because of what you are using it for. My research shows that a number of people have had this happen if they found to be running a commercial activity or using it for bedrooms or other domestic use.
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macconnacher
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:26 am
- Location: Northampton
Is there any reason to specify what the building is for in detail. As long as it is for "hobby" use i.e non commercial surely that is all that is neccessary. I remember building my Monoplane in the family garage and the odd small boy would say on passing "What are you building mister?" On more than one occasion having been honest and said an aeroplane I heard the child say to his mate "Bloody Liar" as they went up the road. It thus became simpler to say "A boat" since most people accepted that this was a reasonable activity for someone in their garage and went on their way without comment or insisting to look over the project.
Surely "Hobby Workshop" is adequate for building regulations purposes. Mention of "Aviation" brings out the worst in bureaucrats and likely to create an investigation. Better to say boat building!
My old chum Jim Coates who built PFAs first Luton Minor in the late 40s worked in later life for Napier at Luton and when he built his house he must have said that he had built an aeroplane so the farmer added a covenent into the deeds to say he must not run gasturbine engines on the land. Jim duly met the covernent since he never ran a Napier Elan on his land though we occasionally ran up the 32 hp Bristol Cherub in the Minor on the front grass during times when the aircraft was stored. As Jim said a Cherub with short exaust stacks made a greater racket within the village than ever a gas turbine would but we never broke the covenent
Surely "Hobby Workshop" is adequate for building regulations purposes. Mention of "Aviation" brings out the worst in bureaucrats and likely to create an investigation. Better to say boat building!
My old chum Jim Coates who built PFAs first Luton Minor in the late 40s worked in later life for Napier at Luton and when he built his house he must have said that he had built an aeroplane so the farmer added a covenent into the deeds to say he must not run gasturbine engines on the land. Jim duly met the covernent since he never ran a Napier Elan on his land though we occasionally ran up the 32 hp Bristol Cherub in the Minor on the front grass during times when the aircraft was stored. As Jim said a Cherub with short exaust stacks made a greater racket within the village than ever a gas turbine would but we never broke the covenent
Stuart Macconnacher
002353
002353
Hi Stuart
You raise an interesting point, I have read about a case where the applicant failed to answer the 'use' question in any detail and failed to get a certificate at a later appeal, I think it was escalated to a national level appeal procedure, he was turned down again for the same reason...not clearly stating the 'use'.
The 'use' rule is (I think I'm quoting it correctly)
“required for a purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse"
If you state swimming pool gym etc and your drawing shows a swimming pool gym etc, you have no need to go into further detail as everyone understands that a swimming pool or gym etc is clearly fits the rules. What the planners apparently don't like is any thing to general like 'hobby' and where they don't have previous knowledge of the activity they appear to need detailed clarification so they can assess if it complies with the 'use' rule.
I am sure people on this forum clearly understand that building an aircraft is as much a hobby as building a go-kart, boat, kit car etc However these are activities that anyone understands, to most people building your aircraft is something that there is probably a law against.
I was intending to put in a fairly comprehensive 'use' description including the regulatory conditions attached to a permit to fly as that clearly limits the aircraft to none commercial use, as well as invite them to contact the LAA or the CAA for confirmation that this is an established hobby.
By the way my application is being made under Class E of the permitted development rules for those who want to waste some time ploughing through the permitted development rules.
You raise an interesting point, I have read about a case where the applicant failed to answer the 'use' question in any detail and failed to get a certificate at a later appeal, I think it was escalated to a national level appeal procedure, he was turned down again for the same reason...not clearly stating the 'use'.
The 'use' rule is (I think I'm quoting it correctly)
“required for a purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse"
If you state swimming pool gym etc and your drawing shows a swimming pool gym etc, you have no need to go into further detail as everyone understands that a swimming pool or gym etc is clearly fits the rules. What the planners apparently don't like is any thing to general like 'hobby' and where they don't have previous knowledge of the activity they appear to need detailed clarification so they can assess if it complies with the 'use' rule.
I am sure people on this forum clearly understand that building an aircraft is as much a hobby as building a go-kart, boat, kit car etc However these are activities that anyone understands, to most people building your aircraft is something that there is probably a law against.
I was intending to put in a fairly comprehensive 'use' description including the regulatory conditions attached to a permit to fly as that clearly limits the aircraft to none commercial use, as well as invite them to contact the LAA or the CAA for confirmation that this is an established hobby.
By the way my application is being made under Class E of the permitted development rules for those who want to waste some time ploughing through the permitted development rules.
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MikeGodsell
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:32 pm
- Location: West Wales
Here in rural West Wales we just go ahead and build what we want. My new kitchen and holiday cottage conversion did not involve any snooping by council parasites.
However the nearby alternative community had a lot of trouble when the solar panel on their geo domes and round house were spotted from a Pembrokeshire National Park chartered helicopter.
The park council threatened to bulldoze the community buildings. But a very successful national campaign opposing this, threatening civil unrest and violence against the councillors was organised. Now the council have completely backed down, and the Welsh National Assembly are promoting the community and its buildings as an example of low energy eco living.
Why do you put up with bureaucratic nonsense in England, why not come out fighting for once?
However the nearby alternative community had a lot of trouble when the solar panel on their geo domes and round house were spotted from a Pembrokeshire National Park chartered helicopter.
The park council threatened to bulldoze the community buildings. But a very successful national campaign opposing this, threatening civil unrest and violence against the councillors was organised. Now the council have completely backed down, and the Welsh National Assembly are promoting the community and its buildings as an example of low energy eco living.
Why do you put up with bureaucratic nonsense in England, why not come out fighting for once?