LAA events
Moderators: John Dean, Moderator
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Brian Hope
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:28 pm
- Location: Sheerness Kent
I understood no decision has been made by the Board.... the board would not wish to proceed with the events.
The concern has been raised that if the LAA allows the continuation of Strut organised flying events where members of the public are given flights, and if an accident happens, and if it is serious enough to attract a large claim and if the pilot's insurance does not cover it, and if the LAA is held partially liable through the organisers, and if the LAA insurance company does not choose to fight it in the event of no LAA liability, but pays up and subsequently charges the LAA more for their insurance, then it would cost members more.
That's a frighteningly high risk, Brian; almost as high as being a tail-dragger pilot.
ALL claims so far on the LAA Insurances have come about due to engineering matters, not flying the public. Flying around 1000 members of the public in a year (youngsters, parents, carers, enthusiasts, helpers) probably raises the profile of light aircrcraft flying and the LAA with at least 10,000 people. I doubt we get that sort of good publicity from all the press, aviation or otherwise, in the same period.
No wonder people complain about us buzzing around above them - let them slip the surly bonds as well, and get a few more people on our side, so we can carry on enjoying our hobby.
So IF/WHEN the Board decides to uphold the temporary ban on Strut organised "3rd party passenger flying", and several of the more-active Struts decide to go their own way, who are you going to get to help run OUR Association? Some of the CofA aircraft owners who presently enjoy this aspect of their LAA activity will also see no need to remain in membership. There may be no-one left to involve the public significantly in the LAA ET role, which can only exist if there is a substantial public benefit. Far from protecting it, the action could actually destroy it.
A number of other avenues that could be investigated have been suggested, but all of them have been dismissed without reason given.
Does the Board really have the mandate to overturn an established membership practice of some 20 years without public debate involving the membership?
The LAA/PFA has a bit of a history of shedding members. Is it about to happen again?
032505
I accept most of the points raised by the various posts but wonder if we may be looking at this issue from the wrong perspective.
If we accept that the LAA is not in a position to afford the insurance or that it places to high a burden on a small organisation and as has been pointed out many of the pilots and aircraft used are neither LAA members nor on a permit issued by the LAA. A fresh look needs to be taken at providing this voluntary service to the public.
I see the need for a separate organisation dedicated to the provision of flights along the lines of the Young Eagles in the US rather than expect one organisation that only represents one branch of GA to shoulder the burden. This would not stop the LAA (any more than the BMAA AOPA etc) supporting or contributing to such an organistion provided it was done in a way that did not create a liability for the LAA.
This is of course far easier to say than to achieve, and the insurance issue would not go away, it just may make it easier however for sponsorship and support from the wider GA community if it was a standalone organisation. It does however immediately raise the issue of scale, if the organisation was only flying a few 10’s of kids it would be hard to justify. While not on the scale of the Young Eagles I suspect it would have to be on scale significantly greater and with a higher public profile than previously achieved to succeed and be viable. Possibly a Euro wide organisation or as a branch of Young Eagles and operated under their banner/ legal/insurance framework. Possibly the RAeS or another aviation body could provide the umbrella organisation.
This may have all been thought of before and even tried. So apologies if I’m raising a previously considered and rejected ideas.
I also think this is further evidence of a fundamental issue that the LAA has and shares with the BMAA, we are both organistions that regulate and provide 'club' services to members. I am not for a moment suggesting the LAA should split into two organisations but it does highlight an issue which other organistions do not have and that it will at times create issues that are difficult to resolve and as such may be best resolved outside the organistion.
If we accept that the LAA is not in a position to afford the insurance or that it places to high a burden on a small organisation and as has been pointed out many of the pilots and aircraft used are neither LAA members nor on a permit issued by the LAA. A fresh look needs to be taken at providing this voluntary service to the public.
I see the need for a separate organisation dedicated to the provision of flights along the lines of the Young Eagles in the US rather than expect one organisation that only represents one branch of GA to shoulder the burden. This would not stop the LAA (any more than the BMAA AOPA etc) supporting or contributing to such an organistion provided it was done in a way that did not create a liability for the LAA.
This is of course far easier to say than to achieve, and the insurance issue would not go away, it just may make it easier however for sponsorship and support from the wider GA community if it was a standalone organisation. It does however immediately raise the issue of scale, if the organisation was only flying a few 10’s of kids it would be hard to justify. While not on the scale of the Young Eagles I suspect it would have to be on scale significantly greater and with a higher public profile than previously achieved to succeed and be viable. Possibly a Euro wide organisation or as a branch of Young Eagles and operated under their banner/ legal/insurance framework. Possibly the RAeS or another aviation body could provide the umbrella organisation.
This may have all been thought of before and even tried. So apologies if I’m raising a previously considered and rejected ideas.
I also think this is further evidence of a fundamental issue that the LAA has and shares with the BMAA, we are both organistions that regulate and provide 'club' services to members. I am not for a moment suggesting the LAA should split into two organisations but it does highlight an issue which other organistions do not have and that it will at times create issues that are difficult to resolve and as such may be best resolved outside the organistion.
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Brian Hope
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:28 pm
- Location: Sheerness Kent
Dave, I know you have been involved in a number of meetings where this issue has been discussed at length, so I do not understand why you insist on ignoring the fundamental problem.
LAA pays for contingency insurance should a YA (actually an organised third party passenger carrying event) result in an accident and the aircraft owner's insurance refuse to pay for some reason.
In reality, regardless of whether the owner’s insurer pays, LAA would be sued because it would be claimed that the event was organised by LAA, and in these instances the no win no fee brigade go for anybody who has the wherewithal to meet a large award.
On the whole these events are well run, but they are far from a totally controlled environment and in the event of a mishap there are all manner of opportunities for a clever legal eagle to argue that the Association has not exercised due care. Regardless of the cost of the premium, regardless of the benefits and the feel good factor of introducing youngsters (and oldies) to aviation, regardless of the thus far excellent safety record, we have to ask whether this is a risk we are prepared to continue to take.
If a claim were to arise, and if the award was greater than our cover we would be in deep trouble and possibly bankrupt. If the insurer paid up and then declined to continue insuring us we would be in trouble because we could not continue to operate. If we had a number of minor claims that our insurer fought off, it would cost them a lot of money and as the law stands they would not be able to recover their costs, and again might they might decide that we are not worth the hassle of coving. These are issues that have put many adventure sport activities out of business in recent years, they are not fairy stories.
If you have potential solutions Dave then please let us know. I have made a point of looking at any suggestions that have been made and seeking opinion form board and staff to see if they are workable. I refute the suggestion that ideas have been dismissed out of hand without explanation.
You are correct that all claims to date have been as a result of our engineering operation, but that is a liability we cannot escape, it is why we exist, but it is also an area which we have very tight control of and operational systems that are robust and defensible.
I really do understand the disappointment that the cessation of YA will bring, my own Strut has held events from the outset of the programme and I have regularly flown kids myself at those events, but as a member of the board I believe I have a responsibility to look at the big picture, to consider the very real risk that a tragedy in a peripheral activity of the Association would have on the well being of the whole. Until a UK government legislates to bring the no win no fee industry into a more accountable operation with a fairer allocation of costs, I'm afraid I do not see that it is sensible that we continue to be involved in these events. I should add that LAA has been, and continues to be involved in discussions at ministerial level to stress the urgency of action being taken in this area.
You are correct of course that a board decision has not yet been taken, I am expressing my personal view. However, unless some as yet unseen solution appears over the horizon very soon, I believe the current suspension of YA activity will become permanent. And yes the board does have the authority to make that decision, and no it has not been without consultation. This has been discussed at a number of NC meetings and at at least two meetings arranged specifically on this topic.
I really do hope that Strut members will understand why the board will probably take this action, and will not decide to leave the Association as a result. I also hope that Struts will remain within the Association rather than become separate (non LAA) entities so they can continue to organise YA type events. They are of course at liberty to do so, but they would be foolish to do so without very seriously considering the implications of being inadequately insured in case of a mishap.
As a final note it should be realized that the Association is still wholly committed to youth education in aviation. The Educational Trust will continue to support Build a Plane projects, and allow flying of the youngsters involved in the completed aircraft. It also provides at least one, and for 2011 probably two flying scholarships for young people to take a fully paid for NPPL course. Funds are also available for other educational activities.
LAA pays for contingency insurance should a YA (actually an organised third party passenger carrying event) result in an accident and the aircraft owner's insurance refuse to pay for some reason.
In reality, regardless of whether the owner’s insurer pays, LAA would be sued because it would be claimed that the event was organised by LAA, and in these instances the no win no fee brigade go for anybody who has the wherewithal to meet a large award.
On the whole these events are well run, but they are far from a totally controlled environment and in the event of a mishap there are all manner of opportunities for a clever legal eagle to argue that the Association has not exercised due care. Regardless of the cost of the premium, regardless of the benefits and the feel good factor of introducing youngsters (and oldies) to aviation, regardless of the thus far excellent safety record, we have to ask whether this is a risk we are prepared to continue to take.
If a claim were to arise, and if the award was greater than our cover we would be in deep trouble and possibly bankrupt. If the insurer paid up and then declined to continue insuring us we would be in trouble because we could not continue to operate. If we had a number of minor claims that our insurer fought off, it would cost them a lot of money and as the law stands they would not be able to recover their costs, and again might they might decide that we are not worth the hassle of coving. These are issues that have put many adventure sport activities out of business in recent years, they are not fairy stories.
If you have potential solutions Dave then please let us know. I have made a point of looking at any suggestions that have been made and seeking opinion form board and staff to see if they are workable. I refute the suggestion that ideas have been dismissed out of hand without explanation.
You are correct that all claims to date have been as a result of our engineering operation, but that is a liability we cannot escape, it is why we exist, but it is also an area which we have very tight control of and operational systems that are robust and defensible.
I really do understand the disappointment that the cessation of YA will bring, my own Strut has held events from the outset of the programme and I have regularly flown kids myself at those events, but as a member of the board I believe I have a responsibility to look at the big picture, to consider the very real risk that a tragedy in a peripheral activity of the Association would have on the well being of the whole. Until a UK government legislates to bring the no win no fee industry into a more accountable operation with a fairer allocation of costs, I'm afraid I do not see that it is sensible that we continue to be involved in these events. I should add that LAA has been, and continues to be involved in discussions at ministerial level to stress the urgency of action being taken in this area.
You are correct of course that a board decision has not yet been taken, I am expressing my personal view. However, unless some as yet unseen solution appears over the horizon very soon, I believe the current suspension of YA activity will become permanent. And yes the board does have the authority to make that decision, and no it has not been without consultation. This has been discussed at a number of NC meetings and at at least two meetings arranged specifically on this topic.
I really do hope that Strut members will understand why the board will probably take this action, and will not decide to leave the Association as a result. I also hope that Struts will remain within the Association rather than become separate (non LAA) entities so they can continue to organise YA type events. They are of course at liberty to do so, but they would be foolish to do so without very seriously considering the implications of being inadequately insured in case of a mishap.
As a final note it should be realized that the Association is still wholly committed to youth education in aviation. The Educational Trust will continue to support Build a Plane projects, and allow flying of the youngsters involved in the completed aircraft. It also provides at least one, and for 2011 probably two flying scholarships for young people to take a fully paid for NPPL course. Funds are also available for other educational activities.
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Tom Sheppard
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:47 pm
There is, alas always some thief aiming to take away what you have worked hard for. Highwaymen dressed well and so do the suits of the no win no fee mafia. I realise that the LAA can no longer encourage youngsters to become flyers, builders or aircraft operators because of this. The LAA exists primarily to permit ordinary folk to construct flying machines, much as it would also like to make flying popular, it probably can't. I doubt if any outreach project brings more than one pilot per year into the fold who would not otherwise have found flying. People who are interested find flying for themselves.
People who absolutely will fly cannot be stopped because it is, of necessity an all-consuming passion.
The young aviator events and scout flying days are, dare I say it, just a means of self justification for the LAA which is concerned about some small percentage of the public who think we are rich and privileged and won't ever change their minds anyway. That they choose to revile those whose privilege comes as the reward for rigorous study and hard work shows just how much we should care about their opinions.
If the issue is liability, then it cannot be ignored nor circumvented.
fortunately it doesn't really matter.
People who absolutely will fly cannot be stopped because it is, of necessity an all-consuming passion.
The young aviator events and scout flying days are, dare I say it, just a means of self justification for the LAA which is concerned about some small percentage of the public who think we are rich and privileged and won't ever change their minds anyway. That they choose to revile those whose privilege comes as the reward for rigorous study and hard work shows just how much we should care about their opinions.
If the issue is liability, then it cannot be ignored nor circumvented.
fortunately it doesn't really matter.
If you think this, you're either unbelievably selfish or you've not been involved in some of the special days put on for disadvantaged youngsters and adults to have a flight.fortunately it doesn't really matter.
That's your loss, but also theirs now.
It certainly is beginning to look that way. Don't tell the 5,000 enthusiast members (spotters) who pay more than half the day-to-day running costs of the LAA, or the 1,000 members with CofA aircraft who belong because they like the flavour of the LAA even though they don't actually need it.LAA exists primarily to permit ordinary folk to construct flying machines
As someone who came to light aircraft flying later in life (well, I hope there's a fair bit left!), I'm keen to encourage others to develop an interest in flying from an earlier age. That's why I'm disappointed with the present situation, but if the LAA Board don't believe the risk is acceptable, we'll have to look for another way.
032505
I was a big fan of the regional relays, now sadly discontinued. The number of strut fly ins appears to be rapidly reducing. The ordinary member must feel the LAA is very much more remote and less relevant to his day-to-day flying. We are left with the rally which being in school holidays I will again not be able to attend except for a fleeting visit Sunday PM.
If the fear of an accident that has never happened, which might exceed the pilots mandatory insurance, which might lead to being sued, which we might loose, causes us to stop, what is the difference, we are dead anyway.
Rod1
If the fear of an accident that has never happened, which might exceed the pilots mandatory insurance, which might lead to being sued, which we might loose, causes us to stop, what is the difference, we are dead anyway.
Rod1
021864
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Tom Sheppard
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:47 pm
Having spent much time over the past few years failing to find a hot air balloon ride for my severely disabled partner, I am well aware of the difficulties faced by those disabled persons who wish to fly. It is quite possible for a suitably briefed pilot to fly disabled persons and this briefing is the sort of thing that the LAA could usefully advise upon as part of its coaching scheme without the need for organising the event . I feel that my comment was taken out of context to make a valid point but was it necessary to be so rude?
Tom, I assume you are addressing me on this point, and if I have misinterpreted your sentiment, I apologise. I felt your final comment showed a lack of concern for the loss of chances that some disadvantaged youngsters have enjoyed up to now. I don't know how else the comment was intended - maybe you were going to qualify it in some way.
I hope you can get the balloon flight for your partner. As far as disabled flyers are concerned, there is a disabled flyers club - maybe more than one - it would be worth checking up on the British Disabled Flying Association. http://www.aerobility.com is where you will find them on the web. They have scholarships to help with the cost.
A disabled friend of mine from university suddenly appeared on the local TV news one evening, having got his PPL at Old Sarum. In fact he was part of the reason I decided to take up flying. There's also an amazing video on the web of a young lady with no arms flying (I think I've remembered that right). It's incredibly inspiring.
Hope you get on OK.
I hope you can get the balloon flight for your partner. As far as disabled flyers are concerned, there is a disabled flyers club - maybe more than one - it would be worth checking up on the British Disabled Flying Association. http://www.aerobility.com is where you will find them on the web. They have scholarships to help with the cost.
A disabled friend of mine from university suddenly appeared on the local TV news one evening, having got his PPL at Old Sarum. In fact he was part of the reason I decided to take up flying. There's also an amazing video on the web of a young lady with no arms flying (I think I've remembered that right). It's incredibly inspiring.
Hope you get on OK.
032505
I have been following this discussion and see both sides of the issue, I would like to express my personal view in this regard. Like many of you I have been involved in aviation and the LAA/PFA for many a long year and taken part in strut flying events, and yes I will miss them should the risk be considered too high to continue, although might I make this point, as individuals we can still influence the young and old by being open about our hobby and being inclusive at our strips etc. Just a small anecdote some years ago I gave a visitor to our strip a flight this young man became so enthusiastic that he would show up time after time helping change oil clean plugs and generally get dirty, as time passed he saved and trained to become a commercial pilot, I lost contact with him and some four years ago we met by chance and guess what he fly's for a major airline has a family and still attends LAA events. We can influence and make life changing changes to individuals this I am sure will not be the only person changed by our passion for light aircraft. I would urge us to be positive and take the opportunities as they present themselves at our hanger door or elsewhere.
Barry
Barry
014175
I agree with Barry, and would underscore how important it is to promote aviation to youngsters. I was lucky, while still at school I answered an advert for a part time job " "experience of building model aircraft an advantage" to find myself building hang gliders and subsequently the opportunity to have a go. Despite the nerve wracking first flight which in those days was also the first solo, I was hooked or should I say addicted.
How ever often youngsters build models or go to airshows, its pales against the addictive nature of a first flight in small aircraft.
How ever often youngsters build models or go to airshows, its pales against the addictive nature of a first flight in small aircraft.