8.33Khz In ALL airspace

Come on in for general chat and POLITE banter between LAA members

Moderators: John Dean, Moderator

Andrew Leak
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:49 pm
Location: Southampton
Contact:

8.33Khz In ALL airspace

Post by Andrew Leak » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:16 pm

I was just about to spend a small fortune on a nice Becker AR4201 until I was thumbing through the LAA mag and on page 7 I spotted ANOTHER Eurocontrol 'consultation' which doesn't look much like a consultation at all. Since we will not be allowed to fit non 8.33khs spacing radios after 2012 and indeed not ALLOWED to use non 8.33 radios after Jan 2018, there seems little point in buying this radio as I will be stung twice all in the name of the EU. I wonder when all this 'befuddlement' is going to stop and common sense prevail. I just don't have the budget to keep buying equipment to 'chop and change' when the EU decides I should. I could buy this pretty little Becker radio and fit it now and get a few years out of it , but still have to buy an 8.33 radio later and rip it all out again, (I suspect that although prices will be higher now they won't be any cheaper nearer 2018 when the EU will have the 'gun against your head') and suppliers won't be sympathetic either.

What is going to happen to GA? The more pilots I talk to (who like me, have limited budgets) are thinking about packing in aviation totally or some ending ownership now while their aircraft still have some value and going back to club aircraft or worse, fishing!

I trawled through the proposal and as usual - we all need this as the 'world will end' if we don't become a 'participating state' ... blah blah blah. No doubt the UK will support this, as our masters like to confuse us more...wait a second, my wife says I don't do politics, got to watch the blood pressure! Sorry, I'll try hard not to.

It appears, even though the UK is seeing airfields close the european situation is supposed to be worse, as 'they' are likely to run out of frequencies not us.

"...Without the extension of 8.33 kHz channel spacing, it is likely that only around 70% of the future requirement for frequencies
in Europe can be met. The situation in the core area of Europe is much worse and, by the end of the decade,
it is likely that only 10-20% of the requirement in the core area will be met."

Where are they getting their 'forecast demand' figures from?

Now let's get this straight, VHF signals are not very good at travelling as far as my limited pilot knowledge goes it is line of sight, roughly 60 nm and if you want to work it out, there is a formula somewhere. So the european stations that we (UK) may potentially conflict with, will be fairly limited unless one ventures into EU airspace of course! Whilst I am not a literary giant like John Brady et al, am I right in thinking that this a leftover from the EU frequency grab consultation that I took part in last year?

Are we ever going to left alone instead of being beaten over the head constantly with EU regulation - that may or may not affect us?

Grumble over, now I need a cheap 8.33 radio! Microair perhaps? ;)


Andrew
034852

User avatar
Rod1
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:22 am
Location: Midlands

Post by Rod1 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:33 pm

How about this?

ATR 833 Transceiver

· 8.33 kHz channel spacing (but supports 25 kHz spacing)
· 57mm panel cut out
· 4 line LCD for easy operation
· Memorises frequencies with name codes
· Approx 100 ch memory with fast access
· Dual frequency watch (listen only on second freq)
· VOX intercom
· Auto Tx off after 2 mins
· Frequency range: 118.000MHz .... 136.975 MHz
· Channel Spacing: 8.33 kHz
· HF output power: approx 6W
· NF output power: approx 4W
· Dimensions: 57mm hole in panel; length 178mm (without connector)
· Weight: approx 700 g
· Power consumption: approx 150mA standby; 1.8A during transmission
· Power Supply: 10.5V – 14V

£1077 plus delivery

Rod1
021864

Andrew Leak
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:49 pm
Location: Southampton
Contact:

Post by Andrew Leak » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:39 pm

I don't know if this is an option but I just trawled through the BMAA forums and found the Vertex VXA220 from these guys: www.vertexairbands.co.uk
it offers just about everything including the 8.33 spacing 5w output etc...all for under £200 !! It's a handheld, but I can live with that, just plumb it into my intercom. Need to get feedback before I waste any money on a '3 legged donkey' though!
034852

Andrew Leak
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:49 pm
Location: Southampton
Contact:

Post by Andrew Leak » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:17 am

Hold the bus! it doesn't transmit on the 8.33 frequencies. Sounded too good to be true.
034852

Brian Hope
Posts: 1271
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:28 pm
Location: Sheerness Kent

Post by Brian Hope » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:58 am

Hi Andrew, it all depends on what sort of flying you do, initially at least. Originally 8.33 frequencies were going to be allocated as required for use above FL100 - airways needs etc. That seems to have gone out the window but with luck it will be a while before many low level users will be using these frequencies. Rather than take the plungs early when the choice of equipment is quite limited, why no buy a secondhand 720/760 radio and wait two or three years to see how things develop. A handheld, even new, is cheap and useable and will still be a useful back-up even if you do go to 8.33 in the medium to long term.

Nigel Ramsay
Posts: 298
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:13 pm
Location: Middle Earth

Post by Nigel Ramsay » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:21 am

You're only saying this because you want to hold on to your Granny's crystal set a bit longer Brian 8)

To put things in perspective though, I've been flying solely with my Icom A20 which I bought in 1989! It's been in three aircraft, flown all over Europe and into North Africa....have I had my money's worth out of it? Oh yes indeedy. Good suggestion by Brian to buy one as a standby!

Andrew Leak
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:49 pm
Location: Southampton
Contact:

Post by Andrew Leak » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:17 pm

Thanks for the 'heads up' from everyone. I think Brian's is probably the best solution, as after all the advice I had a 'chat' with 'The Wife' (who doesn't really understand why everything keeps changing in my world) - we decided to keep my old Delcom 960 as standby as I use it for gliding as well, and then to buy something around the £300 - £500 price which covers a good choice of fairly reasonable secondhand sets. We will save the money up for a top notch hand-held 8.33 unit nearer the time (and use it in both aircraft, if possible) and blow the rest I would have spent this week on over-exuberant excursions around the UK by air, this summer. That 'll probably get me a couple of hours extra...subject to artificially inflated fuel prices of course. :roll:

Thanks again.

Happy flying!

Andrew
034852

Donald Walker
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:35 pm

Post by Donald Walker » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:42 pm

Andrew Leak wrote:Hold the bus! it doesn't transmit on the 8.33 frequencies. Sounded too good to be true.
... and it is not appoved by the CAA or EASA.

Make sure any radio you buy is on one of the approved lists:

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid ... =9&faqid=8

Donald

Andrew Leak
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:49 pm
Location: Southampton
Contact:

Post by Andrew Leak » Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:12 pm

Yes, I agree Donald, but looking at what some of the micro-lite community have been saying; is that the CAA haven't done any recent approvals of suitable newer handsets/installed units for some years, what are we supposed to use for the additional frequencies? I looked at the CAA 'approved' list ,which, I'm grateful you linked to but I have to sway towards the BMAAers, as they don't seem too concerned about approved lists (privately of course!). But I don't know if the approval system applies quite so rigidly to permit aircraft does it? My installed Bendix radio has been in the aircraft for years, isn't on the approved list now and hasn't been 'pulled up' at all. The micro-liters seem to be using any types of radios (handheld or other) without much fear of reprisals from the CAA... (scratches head in bemusement!). Further evidence of lack of noise from the CAA as the Becker AR4201 is covered as 'approved' unit but not it's newer 8.33 'brother' - the AR6201 which will soon be one of the available transceivers and a requirement for the additional future frequencies requirement (already being used commercially!). I'm going to leave this one for now and do what I said in my previous post, find a secondhand (newer) 760 ch radio then buy something in the 8.33 khz line later, when the dust has settled and the CAA (if they are still around!) are happy with it.

Regards,

Andrew
034852

Brian Hope
Posts: 1271
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:28 pm
Location: Sheerness Kent

Post by Brian Hope » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:36 am

Right call Andrew. It is unlikely that anybody you want to talk to is going to have an 8.33 frequency for some while, maybe two or three years. In that time most of the radio manufacturers will have entered the market with suitable 8.33 equipment, probably including handheld providers. This will give greater choice and hopefully competition, which will at least stop price increases even if it doesn't push prices down.
I understand about as much of the workings of electronic things as I do about brain surgery, but I believe approval of radios is to ensure that the band width of each channel is within limits so that it does not bleed into the next channel to it and cause interferance. One of the issues in the past has been that some manufacturers have not regarded having their equipment approved for UK use as cost effective, the market being quite small. For instance, the Icom 200 panel mount is not approved, but as the rebadged King KY97 it is.
As a matter of record, if you are using an airband transceiver it has to be approved, but I suspect that approval will now be a Eurowide EASA approval rather than a UK CAA one.

gasax
Posts: 165
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:43 pm
Location: Aberdeen

Post by gasax » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:52 am

There is a real possibility it may go away all together. The OFCOM proposals are likely to free up a substantial number of frequencies and so there will be virtually no justification for allocating 8.33 frequencies in the UK if that occurs.

It will be interesting to see of the various interest groups manage to fight the proposal successfully.
Pete Morris
013242

Donald Walker
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:35 pm

Post by Donald Walker » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:03 pm

Brian Hope wrote: ..., but I suspect that approval will now be a Eurowide EASA approval rather than a UK CAA one.
Your suspicion is justified:"As of September 2003 EASA took on the role of issuing approval for radio equipment."

It is not surprising handhelds are no longer approved, as they are never supposed to be 'installed' in aircraft. They were designed as emergency back-up in the cockpit, and to be carried by airfield staff, like the grass-cutter, who needs to know if an aircraft is arriving.

Those approved by the CAA were restricted for use outside controlled airspace, but the restriction has been deliberately dropped, or simply no longer mentioned on their website.

France is particularly difficult about unapproved handhelds, which is probably why the French version of ICOM A6 is approved there, and costs 690 euros.

Andrew Leak
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:49 pm
Location: Southampton
Contact:

Post by Andrew Leak » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:55 pm

Donald,
now I am confused! When I looked at the EASA docs on their site for approved 'everything' as just about everything is covered in it, I couldn't find anything relating to older radio types in fact I couldn't see anything for Bendix or King avionics. Without pushing my blood pressure up and not wanted to sound like a plank, does that mean if it isn't mentioned on the EASA list, you have to replace it - even in a permit aircraft? Or am I just starting to worry unnecessarily?!

Andrew
034852

Nigel Hitchman
Posts: 357
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:10 pm
Location: Hinton in the hedges

Post by Nigel Hitchman » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:37 pm

I wonder why there is this need now from Eurocontrol. Surely the radio is old technology. Eurocontrol are now using CPDLC which is some kind of datalink transmission/reciever system fitted to some airliners. Mostly used for over the oceans, but now also used on a trial basis in the Maastrict control zone. You can get clearances and request climbs etc using this. Although in busy airspace radio will presumably still be required for urgent instructions, as this frees up the bandwith, less frequencies should be required. So why isnt Eurocontrol pushing for this to be fitted to all the airliners, so solving their problem, rather than putting the cost onto General Aviation, to solve the problem for the airlines.

Tom Sheppard
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:47 pm

Post by Tom Sheppard » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:28 pm

Almost certainly because the bureaucracy does not work well enough to allow joined up government / right hand left hand co-ordination, call it what you will. The office next door haven't got their own agenda so much as they don't know of their neighbours' existences due to the over complication of the regulatory regime. You may bet that they are, however, spot on on gender equality and office health and safety procedures.

Post Reply