Low cost strip plane - what would you recommend?

J.C. · Post by **J.C.** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:49 pm

Let me say that I am a fan of Jodels, having owned a few but a Minicab is better for what you describe. It is one of the best kept secrets in aviation.
It has flaps, is shorter field, handles better and is faster.
If you would like to try one (no obligation ) PM me and I'll arrange to take you up in my son's.

Jeremy Liber · Post by **Jeremy Liber** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:43 pm

Whilst Jodels are great touring aeroplanes and decent farm-strip machines they are not that good in terms of short field operations.

Unless your 300m usable is flat, firm and with no hedges at either end (USS Nimitz maybe) then I would counsel caution about Jodels.

In a fair breeze, one -up and with less than half fuel 300m (as above) is do-able in a 90hp 2-seater Jodel but the margin for error is limited and you'd need to be pretty competent on the aircraft.

For what its worth. Good luck with your quest.

Jeremy

Alan Kilbride · Post by **Alan Kilbride** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:18 pm

Can't let that go unanswered I'm afraid. 2 up,full fuel,weeks worth of camping gear,no wind,90 hp Jodel:............200 metres. Stopping the little beggar from touchdown is a slightly different matter though. About 250 metres, 1/2 tanks and little wind is about my limit.
I do have a bias though. I love my Jodel.

SteveKR · Post by **SteveKR** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:02 pm

OK, so clearly some differences of opinion on short field ops.

Given that I have no tailwheel experience (soon to be rectified, but that will just give me licence to learn) and 30ft trees on approach in one direction, clear on the other but then I'd have to take off over the trees with a 300m ground run, it does sound like at best I'd be looking at being pretty close to the limits in a Jodel.

As a minimum I'd need to build plenty of short field/strip experience before attempting the 300m strip and be doing it one up with half fuel (I'm no light weight). Definately food for thought.

I'm not even sure if I could fit in one either.

Graham Clark · Post by **Graham Clark** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:51 pm

I am with Jeremy Liber on this, and we are both Jodel owners. But when you talk of 'Jodels', remember that there is considerable variation in the performance of different models due, amongst other things, to the number of seats which can be two, three, or two+2. Then the quantity of fuel bunkered (up to 150 litres in three tanks), obviously has a bearing on take-off performance.
Then on a hot day, you might prefer to fly single-seat with half fuel from a short grass runway, and just miss the trees.....

Alan Kilbride · Post by **Alan Kilbride** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:28 pm

Ok, maybe I am being a bit enthusiastic, but a having D117 with a stall speed of 26 kts you don't need to go far before you have air under your wheels. Nor do you need to approach at 70 kts to get in short.

SteveKR · Post by **SteveKR** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:49 pm

Any one got any thoughts on a Rans s7 - looks like a neat machine, decent performance and one has come up for sale in the mag?

I like to look of a Jodel 117 or 120, but want to keep options open and this would get in to the strip I have in mind with no problem. Not quite the range or load carrying ability but stil capable by the looks of it.

Jeremy Liber · Post by **Jeremy Liber** » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:22 pm

Hi Alan

Understand your enthusiasm, as Graham says, I also own a Jodel (1050) and have owned a C90 powered D11 so I do have a soft spot for the marque.
What I would hate to see, though, is any over-enthusiasm risk putting Steve into a hedge.

Fully loaded and in nil-wind you might(!), just, get the wheels clear of the (wet? soggy? long?) grass in 200m but you'll still be in ground effect, below, at or about the stall, and will probably need at least that length again to establish a sensible rate/angle of climb, hence my comments about the USS Nimitz.

Steve has, thoughtfully, invested in some trees to put at one end of his strip and he will be new to the type. I suspect that you are very experienced on your aircraft and hence have a very finely tuned feel for it, especially on the approach.

Safety first in this situation, we don't want any lovely Jodels getting dented, let alone the driver.

Jeremy

David Hardaker · Post by **David Hardaker** » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:39 pm

Jeremy
I can see both sides of the strip scenario.
With respect a factory 117 will outperform good ol 'PR which was a homebuilt and somewhat heavier (empty) than a factory built 117. I flew PR when it lived at Crosland Moor.
I share Alan's enthusiasm for the 117. My own example would go in and out of some ridiculously small spaces.
The 1050 is quite a different animal, being more leisurely on takeoff compared to a 117.
I'm sure that operating with all the negative factors wouldn't be something that anyone new to strip operations would knowingly do.
A bit at a time etc..... After all a 117 with half tanks will still go a long way.

mike newall · Post by **mike newall** » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:55 pm

Champ, Champ and Champ.

There - you have 3 aeroplanes that can do it

Jonathan Holland · Post by **Jonathan Holland** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:45 am

Taylorcraft?

Great for tall people, will get off the ground as quick as most (but a sedate climb when 2 up and with the A65 engine), 100 mph with the right prop, simple construction and well within your budget at circa 12k for a decent one. I had one for 3 years and it was a great aircraft.

ChampChump · Post by **ChampChump** » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:52 pm

Sorry for the delay in replying.

Having a Jodel, a Champ pending and the OH with a Rans S6, I think I'm at home here.....

I'm prodding OH to give you the gen on the Rans, as he probably has more thime on them than anyone else in the UK.

Ed Parkin · Post by **Ed Parkin** » Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:34 pm

I own a Cub and occasionally fly a Taylorcraft.

A Cub with 90 donkeys and above would be eat it for breakfast at any weight but as you say you will be a bit pushed to find an airworthy one for your budget.

I could strongly recommend you look at a Taylorcraft BC12, surprising excellent STOL performance, both in and out and well within budget, a most underrated machine.

As other posters have mentioned 300m with clear approaches is very different to say a one way 300m with obstructions, don't ask how i found out

john t m ball · Post by **john t m ball** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:16 pm

I have flown the Zenair CH701 high wing, in both Thailand and USA. It is one of the most ugly aircraft around, but is beautiful to fly with very light ailerons. It has built in leading edge slats and will easily go in and out of 300m. You can also fly it without the doors in the summer. very comfortable seats and central Y column. Cruise at about 75kts. all metal construction. The flying experience is the total oposite to my RV6, but I loved it. I think they also call it a Savanah ?

Rich Valler · Post by **Rich Valler** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:35 pm

SteveKR wrote:Champs - haven't seen many advertised over the last couple of years watching AFOR's and dreaming. A cub would be ideal, but may well be beyond my means.

With apologies in advance for a long-ish post, may I add my 2p-worth to the “Champ, Champ, Champ” v Taylorcraft v Cub suggestions.

Champs really are great value for money, especially when compared to Cubs with their undoubted price premium which takes them well over your max £15K budget; with only 20 or so active Champs in the UK they are rarely on the market, and even then can change hands without ever being advertised. My own Champ was effectively acquired within about an hour of the owner deciding to sell; he rang the hon sec’y of the Aeronca UK Club to tell him of the decision, the sec’y rang me knowing I was looking for a Champ, after a quick chat with my (then) aircraft partner, I then called the seller and we soon ’shook hands’ over the phone - job done! - subject of course to a viewing. That was getting on for 10 years ago, and almost 500 flying hrs.

One key virtue of the Champ that is not given enough credit, in my opinion, is the ability to comfortably accommodate tall pilots and passengers, and still give them a good view of the world outside compared to some of it’s contemporaries. I have a keen interest in all of the American classics from the ’40s era, and would not wish to denigrate any of them, as they all have their charms, attributes, and idiosyncrasies, that those fortunate enough to fly them appreciate and defend against all others; but compare the pilot’s position and view in these two photographs, where I believe I‘m right in saying the pilot in each case is around 6’2” :

http://www.abpic.co.uk/popup.php?q=1007603

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=80916&nseq=4

With just 10.5 imp galls standard fuel in the nose-tank, the standard 65hp Champ has a maximum endurance (no reserves) of about 3 hours at 75kts; after all, it was designed as a trainer, not a tourer. However, there are some examples that have wing-tanks fitted, usually of 4imp.g capacity in one or both wing-roots, thus giving over 5hrs range, but using that extra fuel capacity would certainly impact your total 185kg crew requirement.

In any case, I think you will struggle to find within your £15K budget any aeroplane, classic or otherwise, that will provide a 235kg useful load, lift that full load out of a 300m strip over trees, and use <20 litres per hour, so you will probably have to make some compromises.

But if you are interested in a Champ, may I suggest you have a look at the Champ air-test in May Pilot magazine for an assessment of the type that fairly well matches my own experience.

So where is all this waffle leading? Well, there just happens to be a Champ that is for sale, although not advertised yet - and it has two wing-tanks! If you may be interested, pm me your e-mail address and I shall forward some details.

And Mike N (hi!), before you ask … no, it’s not mine!

So I hope this doesn’t break any ‘advertising’ rules.

Light Aircraft Association

Low cost strip plane - what would you recommend?

Jodels

Tearing off a strip...