One last go.
I assume we all agree that we need more members?
All the people on this forum are already members.
The Flyer forum is by far the largest group of potential members who we can access for free.
Two people have made a difference, so why not do it properly?
Got it now, or are we wasting our time…
Rod1
Is this forum broken?
Moderators: John Dean, Moderator
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Paul Hendry-Smith
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:41 pm
- Location: Little Snoring
- Contact:
And there was me thinking this forum was about aviation and the LAA?
I would suggest if you want anonymity, politics, wind up's and all the other crud then maybe you should go to another forum, why try to bring other forum antics to this one??. Personally I do not sit on a computer hovering over forums waiting to cut and past and gossip, I have no employer who will fund my time to do that and I have far better things to do with my time. Don't get me wrong if that is what you want those other forums cater for your needs but I would hope that this forum can remain sanitised and stick to the subject aviation and the LAA.
I have no problem using my full name, and as the president is set then it should be applicable to all, ask yourself why you would want to use a bogus name, is it an accountability issue or is it an employment thing??
The question is this forum broken, I still feel the answer is definitely not, would I want to see more posts, definitely yes but aviation based.
Paul
I would suggest if you want anonymity, politics, wind up's and all the other crud then maybe you should go to another forum, why try to bring other forum antics to this one??. Personally I do not sit on a computer hovering over forums waiting to cut and past and gossip, I have no employer who will fund my time to do that and I have far better things to do with my time. Don't get me wrong if that is what you want those other forums cater for your needs but I would hope that this forum can remain sanitised and stick to the subject aviation and the LAA.
I have no problem using my full name, and as the president is set then it should be applicable to all, ask yourself why you would want to use a bogus name, is it an accountability issue or is it an employment thing??
The question is this forum broken, I still feel the answer is definitely not, would I want to see more posts, definitely yes but aviation based.
Paul
If you're faced with a forced landing, fly the thing as far into the crash as possible.
(Bob Hoover)
(Bob Hoover)
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Harry Hill
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:22 pm
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Paul Hendry-Smith
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:41 pm
- Location: Little Snoring
- Contact:
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Jonathan Holland
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 3:26 pm
Sorry to have to say this but I see a very pro-LAA person (Rod1) flying the LAA flag in a different room (Flyer forum), all on his own and he has been flying it for a very long time. He has done a good job and has not only raised the profile of the LAA to the flying masses, but he has also answered many queries in a positive way. I haven't met him before but believe me when I say (as another Flyer forum regular) that he is doing good things for the LAA over there.
I am a little taken aback by the way that his efforts have effectively been ignored, even when he has made people aware here of his efforts. Is it the case that the LAA really doesn't want to be any more than a processor of engineering queries and a supplier of laminated A5 pieces of paper?
I am hugely pro-LAA and what it does. I have had excellent service from the engineers at the office and they are hugely efficient, as are their support staff. In fact the engineers ARE the LAA. They just need some commercially savvy blood to take them to where they could be in 10 years time as opposed to a purely aviationally accomplished individual who just 'fills a gap'.
Keep up the good work LAA - we need you to be healthy!!!!!!!!!!
My comments are genuinely intended to be constructive.
I am a little taken aback by the way that his efforts have effectively been ignored, even when he has made people aware here of his efforts. Is it the case that the LAA really doesn't want to be any more than a processor of engineering queries and a supplier of laminated A5 pieces of paper?
I am hugely pro-LAA and what it does. I have had excellent service from the engineers at the office and they are hugely efficient, as are their support staff. In fact the engineers ARE the LAA. They just need some commercially savvy blood to take them to where they could be in 10 years time as opposed to a purely aviationally accomplished individual who just 'fills a gap'.
Keep up the good work LAA - we need you to be healthy!!!!!!!!!!
My comments are genuinely intended to be constructive.
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Paul Hendry-Smith
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:41 pm
- Location: Little Snoring
- Contact:
Jonathan, wholeheartedly agree, I am a committed LAA'er, we should all spread the gospel and we should do so without expectation of a pat on the back although that is always a nice feeling. But I don't believe the forum should be manipulated to a specific agenda or try to emulate another. I am on the BMAA forum as a member and they have had problems with forum members, cut and paste merchants and threads being dragged here there and everywhere. The forum should develop organically, and lets keep it aviation based.
Likewise my comments are intended to be constructive.
Cheers
Paul
Likewise my comments are intended to be constructive.
Cheers
Paul
If you're faced with a forced landing, fly the thing as far into the crash as possible.
(Bob Hoover)
(Bob Hoover)
I am an inspector. I don't charge commercial rates for my services, often helping people and signing maintenance chits for free.
I struggle financially to run my own aircraft so I try to help those like myself rather than using them to better my own situation.
I organise fly ins on a regular basis, often single handed, just for other peoples benefit because I like to be around aircraft and to see others enjoy themselves.
I often take people up for trips in my plane to try to share the pleasure with others. I don't ask for fuel money, I don't do it to subsadise my own flying.
The point of this rant is not to big myself up or ask for medals, I ask for no reward. I am merely pointing out that by spreading the gospel over the internet , together with Rod , we have led many people to the LAA's door.
All we have on here is half a dozen people arguing amongst themselves on a virtually unused forum and effectively suggesting that Rod and myself are in the wrong interfering with the closed club attitude of a few stick in the mud " leave it as it is " types that have the audacity to imply that we have nothing better to do with our lives than spending time on the internet. (despite the fact that they are having a pop at us on the internet).
Is this forum dead? that was the question. In my oppinion it is dying and the poison is flowing out from it.
As an inspector, ex strut co ordinator and EC member it makes me want to jack it all in.
You can all put your five pence worth in now, say what you want about me , it wont worry me because I wont waste my time coming back to read any more of the comments here.
I struggle financially to run my own aircraft so I try to help those like myself rather than using them to better my own situation.
I organise fly ins on a regular basis, often single handed, just for other peoples benefit because I like to be around aircraft and to see others enjoy themselves.
I often take people up for trips in my plane to try to share the pleasure with others. I don't ask for fuel money, I don't do it to subsadise my own flying.
The point of this rant is not to big myself up or ask for medals, I ask for no reward. I am merely pointing out that by spreading the gospel over the internet , together with Rod , we have led many people to the LAA's door.
All we have on here is half a dozen people arguing amongst themselves on a virtually unused forum and effectively suggesting that Rod and myself are in the wrong interfering with the closed club attitude of a few stick in the mud " leave it as it is " types that have the audacity to imply that we have nothing better to do with our lives than spending time on the internet. (despite the fact that they are having a pop at us on the internet).
Is this forum dead? that was the question. In my oppinion it is dying and the poison is flowing out from it.
As an inspector, ex strut co ordinator and EC member it makes me want to jack it all in.
You can all put your five pence worth in now, say what you want about me , it wont worry me because I wont waste my time coming back to read any more of the comments here.
John Cook
031327
031327
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Brian Hope
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:28 pm
- Location: Sheerness Kent
John, I'm sure you and Rod have done LAA good service on the Flyer forum, I certainly wouldn't knock you for that. You are both pro LAA on here also. Fact is though that Flyer is what it is, and this forum is a different model. Neither is necessarily right or wrong, just as a Jodel and an RV4 are neither right nor wrong, they just do the job in different ways. I can't see what the fuss is about. The thing about forums is that they become the way they are because of the people and the use they make of them. This one maybe doesn't work for you, and Flyer doesn't work for some people on here. Live and let live should surely be the adage, it has to be a good thing that different people find forums that work for them rather than all of them being the same.
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Tom Sheppard
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:47 pm
Quite right John.
Yours is the attitude I expected to find in the LAA.
It is clearly a minority attitude, which is a shame because it is open and honourable. I support the aims and objectives but perhaps it is all spread too thin to work as well as it might. I'm contributing to LA and trying to generate a strut against a concerted and determined apathy and I'm sure that longer established members have tried to do the same and been kicked and discouraged. I think a forum is a place for expounding and debating ideas before putting them into action. so far I have seen little support for that approach. LA is wonderful aeroporn but I would like to see hints and tips for builders, contact groups of owners and how to guides as well as the £50,000 aeroplanes which are wonderful but beyond my purse.
Half of the membership don't have their own aircraft but must be interested. Perhaps the things I want are under the radar (flying is somewhat insular and cliquey in my experience. You have to fit in with the orthodox view or be vilified and outcast.) I would have thought that here or LA would have been good places to look but I've found more of use to me outside than within. For an organisation that represents the interests of amateur constructors, it should not be thus. I may of course be wrong but to me the top ain't talking to the bottom of this club and complacency is bad airmanship.
Yours is the attitude I expected to find in the LAA.
It is clearly a minority attitude, which is a shame because it is open and honourable. I support the aims and objectives but perhaps it is all spread too thin to work as well as it might. I'm contributing to LA and trying to generate a strut against a concerted and determined apathy and I'm sure that longer established members have tried to do the same and been kicked and discouraged. I think a forum is a place for expounding and debating ideas before putting them into action. so far I have seen little support for that approach. LA is wonderful aeroporn but I would like to see hints and tips for builders, contact groups of owners and how to guides as well as the £50,000 aeroplanes which are wonderful but beyond my purse.
Half of the membership don't have their own aircraft but must be interested. Perhaps the things I want are under the radar (flying is somewhat insular and cliquey in my experience. You have to fit in with the orthodox view or be vilified and outcast.) I would have thought that here or LA would have been good places to look but I've found more of use to me outside than within. For an organisation that represents the interests of amateur constructors, it should not be thus. I may of course be wrong but to me the top ain't talking to the bottom of this club and complacency is bad airmanship.
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Brian Hope
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:28 pm
- Location: Sheerness Kent
I'm sorry Tom but if you are not seeing help, advice, enthusiasm and friendliness within LAA then you can't be looking very hard. Active Struts, type clubs, strips and airfields where LAA members congregate to fly or simply chew the fat - all the help and advice is out there for the asking. Here on this forum even where there is a ready response to help and offer advice when somebody posts a query. I think you'd be hard put to meet a more friendly and helpful group than LAA members, that has certainly been my experience.
One day our promised all singing and dancing website will be up and running (promised later this year) and it will have substantially more general interest on it, but it will only ever be a taster; it is interaction with people who makes life interesting and exciting.
I often wonder who people think these 'people at the top' are Tom, you know they are just ordinary members trying to move the Association forward because they are very enthusiastic about it. They are practically all LAA aircraft owners and builders and have appreciated what LAA has done for them so they want to help keep it going for others to enjoy in the future. If that doesn't register on your 'good guys' criteria in a similar way to John's more direct help as an Inspector, then maybe you need to reappraise things a bit.
The Luciole in the latest mag cost Richard Teverson £12K to build, and we have featured the plans built Menestrel as well this year, another low cost option. In fact the only high end kit that has made the cover feature so far this year has been the RV12. I think if you look back through the magazine you will see many references to plans built and the low cost kits as well as the top end stuff. LAA is a broard church and I like to think the mag does a pretty good job of covering the very wide spread of interests that our members have.
We do of course run a number of courses where members can learn basic skills, and I do plan to use material from those courses to produce some hints and tips type features. I have also been speaking with Engineering about similar material. It all has to come within the general balance of what our members want though. I have plenty of people expound the opposite view to yours that we already have too much technical material and not enough about plastic fantastics.
One day our promised all singing and dancing website will be up and running (promised later this year) and it will have substantially more general interest on it, but it will only ever be a taster; it is interaction with people who makes life interesting and exciting.
I often wonder who people think these 'people at the top' are Tom, you know they are just ordinary members trying to move the Association forward because they are very enthusiastic about it. They are practically all LAA aircraft owners and builders and have appreciated what LAA has done for them so they want to help keep it going for others to enjoy in the future. If that doesn't register on your 'good guys' criteria in a similar way to John's more direct help as an Inspector, then maybe you need to reappraise things a bit.
The Luciole in the latest mag cost Richard Teverson £12K to build, and we have featured the plans built Menestrel as well this year, another low cost option. In fact the only high end kit that has made the cover feature so far this year has been the RV12. I think if you look back through the magazine you will see many references to plans built and the low cost kits as well as the top end stuff. LAA is a broard church and I like to think the mag does a pretty good job of covering the very wide spread of interests that our members have.
We do of course run a number of courses where members can learn basic skills, and I do plan to use material from those courses to produce some hints and tips type features. I have also been speaking with Engineering about similar material. It all has to come within the general balance of what our members want though. I have plenty of people expound the opposite view to yours that we already have too much technical material and not enough about plastic fantastics.
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Jonathan Holland
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 3:26 pm
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Nigel Ramsay
- Posts: 298
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:13 pm
- Location: Middle Earth
So let's just review this thread;
Initially Rod1 posted on the fact that no-one had commented on the CEO's resignation. Interesting point, still no-one has really? I'm sure we all have opinions but perhaps we prefer to keep them to ourselves, or maybe the news wasn't that well publicised? A small appearance on the home page would likely be overlooked by forumites who would go straight to the forum pages. In fact, one could say it was Rod who informed us?
On to the general question; is the forum dead? Well obviously not as this thread is ongoing!
Do we want to indulge in general discussion (with the inevitable squabbles) I don't know. Opinion on this thread suggests not, preferring to stick to Factual matters. Then again, just how many of us are contributing here, I can't count now because I'm writing this but I bet it's less than 8 members. How many are READING this may be a different matter and it would be good to see that data.
However, the Flyer Forum is indeed a very active place and is certainly I agree a main source of potential members. Remember that most flying schools DON'T propmote the LAA or the BMAA (I refer to GA types or whatever the modern term is!). It's not in their interest, they like to keep their pupils in 'their' flying club with it's spam can hire rates and regular check rides etc. Can't blame them, it's the only way they can survive commercially.
BUT Flyer forumites can be educated and I heartily agree that we need to do that, Rod and JC have certainly been doing their bit, and I'm sure more of us could. I also think we could suggest an LAA|| area on the Flyer Forum where we could inform and discuss the benefits of belonging to our Association; what say you?
Finally, just a comment on the suggestions that there are 'people at the top', confidential decisions etc. We've been here so many times before!
I served on the EC for several years and was at one time Vice Chairman. During my time on the EC (Now BOARD.... how grand!) we came in for the same criticism. The fact is simple, 8000 members (ish) the majority of whom, say nothing, accept their magazine and whatever rules are made. ONLY when they don't like something do they complain.
VERY FEW actually DO anything about it. You know who you are! Stand up, stand for election at Board level or to become an NC rep for your Strut, volunteer your services (but don't be miffed if you aren't required for a particular event for whatever reason), but DO something positive please!
On that note Brian and I, together with Ian Harrison are effectively the Rally Planning Team (or whatever you like to call it). We would like a FEW volunteers to work for us over the Rally week-end, not necessarily all the time, shifts will do! Contact any of us if you would like to help.
Initially Rod1 posted on the fact that no-one had commented on the CEO's resignation. Interesting point, still no-one has really? I'm sure we all have opinions but perhaps we prefer to keep them to ourselves, or maybe the news wasn't that well publicised? A small appearance on the home page would likely be overlooked by forumites who would go straight to the forum pages. In fact, one could say it was Rod who informed us?
On to the general question; is the forum dead? Well obviously not as this thread is ongoing!
Do we want to indulge in general discussion (with the inevitable squabbles) I don't know. Opinion on this thread suggests not, preferring to stick to Factual matters. Then again, just how many of us are contributing here, I can't count now because I'm writing this but I bet it's less than 8 members. How many are READING this may be a different matter and it would be good to see that data.
However, the Flyer Forum is indeed a very active place and is certainly I agree a main source of potential members. Remember that most flying schools DON'T propmote the LAA or the BMAA (I refer to GA types or whatever the modern term is!). It's not in their interest, they like to keep their pupils in 'their' flying club with it's spam can hire rates and regular check rides etc. Can't blame them, it's the only way they can survive commercially.
BUT Flyer forumites can be educated and I heartily agree that we need to do that, Rod and JC have certainly been doing their bit, and I'm sure more of us could. I also think we could suggest an LAA|| area on the Flyer Forum where we could inform and discuss the benefits of belonging to our Association; what say you?
Finally, just a comment on the suggestions that there are 'people at the top', confidential decisions etc. We've been here so many times before!
I served on the EC for several years and was at one time Vice Chairman. During my time on the EC (Now BOARD.... how grand!) we came in for the same criticism. The fact is simple, 8000 members (ish) the majority of whom, say nothing, accept their magazine and whatever rules are made. ONLY when they don't like something do they complain.
VERY FEW actually DO anything about it. You know who you are! Stand up, stand for election at Board level or to become an NC rep for your Strut, volunteer your services (but don't be miffed if you aren't required for a particular event for whatever reason), but DO something positive please!
On that note Brian and I, together with Ian Harrison are effectively the Rally Planning Team (or whatever you like to call it). We would like a FEW volunteers to work for us over the Rally week-end, not necessarily all the time, shifts will do! Contact any of us if you would like to help.
Ok, I asked the question so if I do not like the answer that is my problem. Based on the answers I would say that by forum standards it is broken – the numbers do not lie – but that that is the way people want it. I am surprised that there is so little support for the new members initiative and disappointed at the tone of some of the posts but ha ho.
I suspect that the Flyer community of LAA members will continue to increase as we are well past critical mass and JC & I are no longer the lone voices within. If this forum continues to be non strategic to the LAA I expect it will stay broken, but if nobody cares that is the right answer. If I am correct in the above trends there will be some amusement round the corner, but after all, it is only a forum right
Rod1
I suspect that the Flyer community of LAA members will continue to increase as we are well past critical mass and JC & I are no longer the lone voices within. If this forum continues to be non strategic to the LAA I expect it will stay broken, but if nobody cares that is the right answer. If I am correct in the above trends there will be some amusement round the corner, but after all, it is only a forum right
Rod1
021864
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mikehallam
- Posts: 576
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:12 pm
- Location: West Sussex
- Contact:
Seems to me Rod,
That to fish for new LAA members you MUST spread the word elsewhere inc. of course other "more lively" if sometimes contentious outside fora.
No good preaching here to the converted !
And those folk you do persuade to look into what the LAA offers must - some at least - see a different steadier formula perhaps (IMHO) more in keeping with the standards one wishes to promulagate.
i.e. Good Piloting & good engineering maintenance.
For the chattering classes other forums offer a wide alternative range of opportunities.
So PLEASE keep up the missionary work outside the LAA forum, it's obviously a big aid to recruitment. Yes too if you choose to try ditto on [b]bikers[/b] and BMAA sites ?
mike hallam.
That to fish for new LAA members you MUST spread the word elsewhere inc. of course other "more lively" if sometimes contentious outside fora.
No good preaching here to the converted !
And those folk you do persuade to look into what the LAA offers must - some at least - see a different steadier formula perhaps (IMHO) more in keeping with the standards one wishes to promulagate.
i.e. Good Piloting & good engineering maintenance.
For the chattering classes other forums offer a wide alternative range of opportunities.
So PLEASE keep up the missionary work outside the LAA forum, it's obviously a big aid to recruitment. Yes too if you choose to try ditto on [b]bikers[/b] and BMAA sites ?
mike hallam.
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Nick Allen
- Posts: 456
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am
- Location: Oxford
- Contact:
Rod, you and JC do sterling work promoting the LAA on the Flyer forum, no question. However, I'm still not sure what purpose an LAA section there would serve: the AOPA section is not exactly a hotbed of activity -- go back half a page and you're back in Oct 2010! There is a possibility of simply diluting the information around too many sources.
As has been discussed here often in the past, when people ask about the LAA, it would be good to be able to point them to a website that looked a bit more, well, contemporary...
As has been discussed here often in the past, when people ask about the LAA, it would be good to be able to point them to a website that looked a bit more, well, contemporary...