democracy and member involvement at work - not!

josher · Post by **josher** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:17 am

I have just seen the 'club charter' circulated on a sign this by September 25th or your out basis. Apparently charters for Builders, Inspectors, Owners and Check Pilots to follow presumeably on a similatr basis.

The Club Charter is appearently a 5th draft so has been in developement for some time. No discussion of the concept much less the content anywhere outside the Board so far as I am aware. Certainly no mention of this at the NC meeting in early July when the new Rules were imposed - an opportunity missed or a controversy ducked?

Any sense of member involvement in the development of 'governance' by our 'Board' seems totally lacking. Autocratic and arrogant are terms coming to mind. I am seriously questioning whether this is an organisation I want to belong to.

Malcolm Rogan

Bill Scott · Post by **Bill Scott** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:21 am

Would you care to provide a link to this? Reading your post with no documentary evidence makes no sense.

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:03 pm

Hi Malcolm, the club charter is really little more than a formal updating of the Strut agreement that your Strut would have signed on its formation many moons ago. It was discussed at the last NC meeting, and you were indeed there at the time, and the sign up date has purposely been set after the next NC (24th September) so that Struts and clubs can air their views at that meeting prior to signing if they wish.
Clearly we do live in a different world today than we lived in in innocence even ten years ago, so the charter merely sets out to unambiguously state what the expectations and responsibilities are of the parties involved. To do otherwise in today’s environment would be foolhardy. I fail to understand why people who have to abide by rigorous health and safety documentation, method statements etc etc in their daily lives, often before even being allowed to set foot in the workplace, cannot see how we as an Association are subject to the same pressures to ensure that our ‘firewalls’ are well ordered and in place. It is, after all, for everybody’s benefit that they are.
I hope that in the short term the Board and new CEO will be able to develop a good working relationship with the Struts, Clubs and National Council. As said before though, it is a two way street and there must be desire from NC to take a more proactive role in how it and the Association are run.

Mike Mold · Post by **Mike Mold** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:57 pm

WM, To you, obviously. Where have you been since Peter Harvey's resignation was publicised?

Malcolm, I raised the rules and charter issue at the last NC and it was indeed discussed. No notes or minutes from the meeting have yet been circulated so maybe your memory has not been jogged?

josher · Post by **josher** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:44 pm

Bill I can't find a link on the website [surprise surprise!] so I suppose you have to go to your coordinator to get a copy. I could email you a copy if you wish

Mike I am prepared to beleive that I was so aggravated by the Rules discussion that a mention of Charter[s] failed to make an impression on my fevered brain but there was certainly no draft to review nor indication of the impact of the document - was thare?!

Brian please explain what there is to discuss on the 24th. We are in tha same situation as with the Rules only worse. The document has been approved by the Board and is effectively implented by the day after. Any organisation failing to sign up by the 25th does not have the benefits of LAA insurance cover for any activity so its sign or else. There is apparently nothing to discuss

Is there any reason to beleive that the other charters will do anything other than appear in the same way?

Where was the discussion of the principal of charters, why they are necessary, what are the implications of failing to sign, what are the implication of signing and then failing to honour the undertaking [by ommission or commision]? Who reviewed drafts outside the Board - Anybody? Not the NC

Iam tired of hearing how the Board want NC to take on a positive role and then finding they are bypassed at evry point where one might reasonably expect their involvement as the supposed bridge between the Board and the membership. I dont believe it anymore

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:30 pm

Hi Malcolm, there is a significant amount of explanatory documentation included with the charter that was sent out to Struts and Clubs. There is also a period of over eight weeks until the NC meets in September. By my reckoning that gives the Struts a more than reasonable amount of time to consider the document and write back to the board with any comments or changes they would like to see. I’d call that a consultation period, not sure why you haven’t managed to work that one out.
Plus, as I said before, further discussion can also be had at the NC meeting itself.
Furthermore, LAA is not going to cast Struts or Clubs aside, that is the very last thing we want to do; we want to work with them to find agreement on this issue. That said we have to set a date, not to do so would simply mean that nobody would bother over much to get the matter resolved. Were that date next week I could understand you angst, but eight weeks - maybe you are being a touch over sensitive.
Personally I do not have any issues with the content of the charter, and I have been involved on the committee of the Kent Strut for over 20 years so yes it does have a direct bearing on my LAA involvement. Kent will review the charter and make any comment it deems necessary, and that is the intention of sending it out in the first place.
So Malcolm, rather than shoot from the hip, have your Strut committee read the charter and make any points they feel relevant so they can be freely discussed and considered. It might be good sport to take a blast at everything the board come up with in order to ensure that the association is as safe as possible from frivolous claims, but to be honest it gets very tiresome for those of us who put our heads above the parapet and try to move the Association forward. You are being offered the opportunity to discuss the charter and make comment, I suggest it would be more constructive to take that opportunity and act on it.

ColinC · Post by **ColinC** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:27 pm

I have circulated it to our Strut members and await feedback.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to attend the last NC meeting but I am pretty clear about the intent of the document. I'll report back with any comments via the NC in due course.

Brian, I did think that as it affects the entire membership it should be posted on the web site and possibly with the magazine. Currently (but I am often wrong) I think it has just been circulated via the NC etc., but it does affect the whole membership in that it's the rules of their LAA we are discussing, not just Strut or Club members.

As a 'Club' Officer, personally I approve of the clarity it provides for me and I appreciate that we need to be unambiguous about our insurance cover.

regards,

Colin

Nigel Ramsay · Post by **Nigel Ramsay** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:54 pm

welshman wrote:Mike, so sorry but not being clrevoyant or in the know !! it was only put on the members area noticeboard today 27th, was actually put onto this forum some time after my entry
Cheers.

No Ron, that was the announcement of the appointment of the new CEO, the original announcement of the resignation was some time ago, but to be honest, it wasn't very noticeable. I believe Rod1 posted a comment but there were no replies........

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:10 pm

Hi Colin. This particular charter covers the relationship between Struts and Clubs on the one hand, and the LAA on the other. Whilst technically it is allied to the Rules of the Association, it does not affect a non Strut or Club member directly, so distribution has been limited to those directly affected parties.

josher · Post by **josher** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:11 pm

Come on Brian I ask again what is to discuss at the next NC on the 24th?

'Struts and type clubs have until the 25th of September 2011 in which to sign the Club Charter and confirm their inclusion within the LAA insurance and club scheme. It is anticipated that club officials will wish to sign on behalf of their clubs much sooner, to clarify their protection and insurance position.'
P. Harvey in the Q&A accompanying the charter.

This is not a document for consultation or comment it is for Clubs/Struts to accept or not with no prior consultation on concept or content. The content may not be contentious but the process certainly is.

If the 'Board' had been interested in involving the membership on this document a draft could have been circulated or even tabled for discussion at the July 3rd NC. Concept sold and commments gathered and evrybody goes away feeling involved. Sept 25th date still met. It didn't happen. Opportunity missed! Why?

Are we to be subect to the same process on charters for pilots, inspectors coaches etc.?

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:44 pm

Hi Malcolm, so now the content of the charter is fine but the process of arriving at it isn't. Excuse me while I go bang my head against the wall for a few minutes....
Ahhh, that's better, I can see much more clearly now.
Truth is I do not know how the other charters are going to be handled because they have yet to be discussed in any detail. I do though hope we learn from this experience.

josher · Post by **josher** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:30 am

Brian

I didn't say it wasn't contentious - personally I think it's sloppily written and lacks clarity on import matters probably due to its incestuous generation - but even if it were the perfect document the process by which it appears shows that the Board has little/no interest in any involvment of the NC the struts or the wider membership in gneration of these 'instrument of governaance'.

Malcolm

Mike Mold · Post by **Mike Mold** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:46 am

The draft Club Charter doesn't come up on the search engine. As it is to be discussed at the NC on 24th Sept, can it be posted somewhere on this site so Strut members have access to it and can then advise their NC reps on how to vote?