Will ORS4 No 865 be renewed in April 2012?

Richard Mole · Post by **Richard Mole** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:19 pm

I have rather lost the plot in regard to using a Medical Declaration to support my ancient PPL. At the moment I rely upon a medical declaration as it is a very low cost option for me.

Does anyone know whether the existing exemption, that allows the use of the Medical Declaration until 8'th April 2012, is likely to be renewed?

If not, is it sensible to obtain an NPPL beforehand? This would grate a little as my PPL was issued for life and if it was safe to allow an underpinning Medical Declaration this year then why would it become unsafe in future?

mikehallam · Post by **mikehallam** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:30 pm

I think LASORS will confirm the set up details.

AFIR.
Old UK PPL can be used instead of & with same restrictions as NPPL using a Self Declaration, countersigned by ones own Dr. Do not get an NPPL is what the CAA guru told me.

mike hallam.

Post by **John Dean** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:09 am

Mike is right - LASORS will confirm the position but I believe that to use an NPPL style self declaration with an old CAA licence you now need to have a SSEA rating on your licence as well as an SEP one.

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:32 am

Hi Richard, LASORS is due to be replaced by CAP 804 in the early part of 2012, so perhaps it would not be advisable to rely on LASORS. A number of queries have arisen since we published the EASA Licences article which I am addressing to CAA, which has been very helpful in providing information. I hope to have a definitive answer sometime next week.

Richard Mole · Post by **Richard Mole** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:11 am

Thanks everyone. What a minefield.

mikehallam · Post by **mikehallam** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:00 am

Certainly a minefield, but that at my age I don't concern myself too much about the future that is to come !

I am convinced that as I've experienced so far, 'Grandfather' rights will continue to protect users of the lifetime UK PPL at least within GB & flying non EASA a/c.

For example if you had a full PPL (A) from before SSEA was discovered or flew a microlight ditto, my then top CAA man advised they wouldn't be able to take the privileges away by any subsequent creations or subdivision of category.

Of course my method won't suit younger brethren who have many years ahead. They'll have to jump around to assess, minimise & dodge as EASA continues deploying its mushroom farming technique !

mike hallam

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:06 pm

Hi Richard, this from CAA FCL.
The exemption which allows a JAR PPL holder to fly with an NPPL Medical Declaration has been re-issued again to expire on 30th June 2012 and so nothing changes until then. A proposal is being made by the UK to the European Commission to allow an exemption under Article 14(4) of Regulation 216/2008 to allow a JAR-FCL licence (which will be a Part-FCL licence) with a medical declaration to be used as if it were a LAPL(A) with a LAPL Medical Certificate for the period 1st July 2012 to 30th June 2013. In parallel, a new ANO exemption would be issued to allow UK (non-JAR/non-Part-FCL) licences with medical declarations to be used as NPPLs for the same period. If agreed, this would allow 12 months from 1st July (which is when LAPLs are to become available) for pilots holding medical declarations to obtain a LAPL or an NPPL. This proposal is conditional on gaining the agreement of the European Commission.

From that I take it you are currently OK to July 1st, after which depends on whether the EU Commission allows the extension to June 30 2013. If it does you have another year, if it doesn't you will either have to get a LAPL with a LAPL Medical, or get an NPPL and continue with your current NPPL declaration. Provided you can meet the LAPL Medical, this would be a better bet as the Medical for over 60's is every two years rather than every year as with the NPPL, and of course, you will be able to fly in the other EU states. BUT that depends on how your particular doctor handles the NPPL and will handle the LAPL. The former does not actually entail a medical examination, though some doctors still insist on carrying one out (mine does). The latter does entail a medical examination and as stated in the latest magazine (Feb) there are some issues for some pilots who can meet NPPL but cannot meet LAPL.
I hope this at least gives you some comfort, worst case scenario is that you will have to get an NPPL before July 1st, an unwanted expense no doubt but at least the pain is only financial. As soon as I hear whether the EU has agreed to the CAA's request for an extension to 2013 I will post the information.

Richard Mole · Post by **Richard Mole** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:03 pm

Hi Brian, thanks so much. I think I understand (!). It's a relief to learn that decision time is put off to the end of June, or possibly into 2013 depending upon what is agreed in the interim.

Incidentally, when I last needed to renew my Medical Declaration it turned out that the GP whom I had seen on several prior occasions was on maternity leave. I saw someone else in the same practice whom I already knew from consultations over the usual minor matters that arise from time to time. He starts his clinic at around 8:15 if I remember right and I went in second. I handed over the underpinning paperwork from the CAA website, apologised for burying him in paper, and started to explain the system. He stopped me with a laugh and said that he had practiced as a GP for over twenty years without ever having met this before. But the guy who went in before me had made the same request! Anyway, about a week later I got a phone call to collect the dated Declaration with his signature.

Lets hope that the LAPL process is also GP friendly.

Thanks again

mikehallam · Post by **mikehallam** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:32 pm

Brian,

I'm pleased you are up to speed on this mixed origin subject & where it appears to lead us.
I assume that your not mentioning the old UK PPL(A) LIFETIME Licence means it will continue as ever was & no need to change horses.

Therefore if you are in the know, so to speak, other PFA/LAA old boys with 'proper' PPLs & reading this may wish confirmation that there's not any need to swap or buy or do anything pre-emptive.
i.e. Our lifetime rights cannot be removed retrospectively in the UK.

JAR PPL's are a more recent invention, but lots of us pre-date that and I repeat. The CAA advice to me was 'do nothing'.

mike hallam (74)

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:52 pm

Hi Mike, I'm certainly not promoting the idea that I am up to speed, though I did get to know a bit more than I did through researching the mag article on this. Truth is I know who to ask in CAA!!
If you have a UK PPL, like the JAR PPL it is OK to use it with an NPPL Medical Declaration until June 30th this year. After then, the exemption it is likely (but not definitely) to be extended for a further year to June 30th 2013. Then it will stop and you will have to either get an NPPL or a LAPL, or go back to a Class 2 medical to validate your UK PPL.
Remember though, you must have an SSEA Rating on your PPL if you wish to have your biennial legally signed off with only an NPPL declaration, it usually only has an SEP Rating and the SSEA has to be added - at a cost via CAA FCL.

Richard Mole · Post by **Richard Mole** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:21 pm

Mike, my PPL was issued over 50 yrs ago (just) for Group A landplanes up to 12,500 lb for life. After a few changes of address and 28 years lying fallow (when domestic responsibilities were a priority) it was re-issued as PPL SEP land and for SLMG. It was issued subject to the 'privileges' specified in the ANO for the time being in force & subject to experience requirements plus a valid medical certificate.

So technically if the ANO at some point specifies a Class II medical rather than a Medical Declaration then the terms of my lifetime licence may not have been removed (but I am no lawyer).

In a fair world, the driver for medical requirements could only be rationally grounded in safety considerations. Unless evidence can be brought forward to demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that safety would be compromised by continuing to underpin the licence by a Self Declaration of medical fitness for private flying in the UK, it would seem that non-safety related considerations have become the driver.

It may well be the case that someone with very deep pockets might mount a challenge on this or some similar basis. For me and the rest of us, I would suppose, there is no real alternative but to comply. But it grates.

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:20 pm

What you say is correct Richard, our old PPLs were decreed as lifetime licences subject to us meeting the medical and currency requirements. That medical requirement was, until quite recently, a Class 2 Medical, and if you continue to get a Class 2 Medical then nothing changes and your lifetime licence remains for as long as you can meet the requirements, though after April 7 2015 you will only be able to fly Annex 11 aircraft. About three years ago CAA allowed us to fly to NPPL limits with a NPPL declaration with our PPL licences, something of a bonus because it meant we didn't have to fork out for a NPPL licence. Unfortunately some smart**** raised the SEP/SSEA issue and that has really muddied the waters. People are getting biennials signed off without the SSEA Rating, some instructors/examiners not understanding the regulations, and it has become a licensing headache. I think CAA sees an opportunity to tidy things up by making NPPL declarations valid only for NPPL licences and thus clear up the SSEA/SEP issue. Yes it's an imposition for those who use the declaration with their UK PPL, doubly so if you have already forked out 80 odd quid to have the SSEA Rating added to your PPL. But a reason to cry foul that our lifetime licences have been compromised - I do not think so. And I say that as somebody who is himself up the swanny. I have not flown for a couple of years due to insufficient funds but hope to get going again this year. I was on a declaration with my UK PPL, but as I need a licence revalidation flight I either have to try for a Class 2, or have an SSEA rating added to my PPL (£80+), or get an NPPL licence for 130 odd quid just to cover the few months until the LAPL starts in July. At the moment I'm leaning towards a NPPL because that at least will continue indefinitely whereas the SSEA rating will be worthless on the UK PPL after end June 2013 at the latest, or end June 2012 worse case.

Roger Camp · Post by **Roger Camp** » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:37 am

Having just fought my way through the lot of words above, i dont think i have lost the plot, i dont know whether i am coming or going. Base line is, for the individiual to decide what he wants from his flying. Does he want to stay within the confines of the UK or does he want to spread his wings further afield. Which ever route the pilot decides, then he and only he alone has to go that route. The licensing laws will change again in 5 years so this debate will always be around. Just because i have a Licence issued in 19 tincan and it has no expiry date doesnt mean that things wont change cos they will. As i have lived here in Germany by nigh on 30 years i changed my licence many years ago because i wanted to explore europe which i do. so i dont have an option. Here all flying medicals are not carried by the local quack but have to be done by designated Aviation doctors and at a cost !!! but you walk out with the paperwork in yer mitts and not wait a week.

Why dont we let the LAA do the representation and inform all members how and what is required and involved. I read in the above that 3 posters had specific contacts at the CAA, this, in my opinion and experience, is the minefield you are walking on. I am not saying those contacts arent reliable but they are working for a Govt agency and basically they dont give a ***t what is said or explained because at the end of the day what comes out written in black and white is the measure of all things, not a telecon last friday. Just my opinoin really.

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:53 am

You are of course welcome to your opinion Roger but with respect I have not been talking to the tea lady or the cleaner at the CAA. When I researched the article for the magazine I was directed to the chap who is running the CAA side of the EASA Licensing changes and far from not giving a hoot, he has been extremely open and helpful. In fact CAA has been very helpful to UK GA on licensing and medicals over the years, which is why we have a GP medical declaration and an NPPL, and we will have a GP Medical for the LAPL, whilst most states of the EU will only have an AME option.
I believe in credit where it is due, and whilst this EASA changeover is seemingly not very well organised, with a number of issues yet to be resolved, any blame for that lies squarely at EASA's door, not the CAAs.

Roger Camp · Post by **Roger Camp** » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:20 am

Brian, I am sorry if i inadvertantly put the preverbiale cat out, I was not insuating. Maybe I didnt quite get across what i really meant or thought, (well it was 05.30 this morning), I was merely trying to bring to the attention the fact that 3 people had 3 contacts in a govt organisation. More than likely sit in 3 different offices etc. This is why i put, about the LAA and wait out till the paper in black and white appears. Because as i mentioned, this is what affects us not what the "trolly dolly" says.

Sorry if i gave the wrong impression. I have had and still do have some very bitter experience(s) of Govt. offices both here in Germany and the EU. as a result of the Certification and Regulatory work i am involved in.

I fully agree that the "gentleman in the woodpile" lies with the EASA like alot of things and the CAA is the one to carry the brunt from both sides.

Roger