Belgium

Kevin Dilks · Post by **Kevin Dilks** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:22 pm

What is the situation regarding flying through there airspace? And what do people actually do?

Cheers
Kevin

Donald Walker · Post by **Donald Walker** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:46 pm

Responsible pilots pay the fee to get the permit and remain insured. Others take their chances.

I hope this helps

Steve Brown · Post by **Steve Brown** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:08 pm

Unless you especially want to actually go there ie land (please help me out with reasons), bypassing their airspace either to the north or south is really easy. GPS is such a joy that allows you to clip past outside their FIR by .......this much!
Quite why they think it makes sense to try to charge pilots for this beats me - especially when Holland, France & Germany clearly have a whole lot more to offer.

Donald Walker · Post by **Donald Walker** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:36 am

AFAIK, the fee was introduced to stop Belgian pilots registering their PtF aircraft abroad to save money.

We can't complain though, because foreign PtF aircraft visiting the UK have to pay more than the Belgian fee.

Only home-builts and all French PtF aircraft are exempt:
http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.f ... d_GC_6.pdf

Brian Hope · Post by **Brian Hope** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:30 pm

'We can't complain though' says Donald Walker.
Afraid I don't understand why not Donald. CAA allows all homebuilts from other EU states to fly in the UK without a fee, plus PtF factory builts and microlights from France, so we are not charging Belgian owners of homebuilts but they are charging us. I am also not sure about your comment on costs. The latest figures I have show Belgium is seeking 87 Euros for all non ICAO aircraft, but where CAA charges, the fee is £51.

Donald Walker · Post by **Donald Walker** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:04 pm

Brian,

As you know, in the UK we are forced to home-build many of the aircraft that can be purchased factory built in the rest of the EU. This results in Belgium having far less home-builts, which are exempt from the CAA fee, and far more factory-builts, which are not.

I said we can't complain, because a very small minority of Belgian pilots can visit the UK free of charge. Belgian microlighters have been deterred from coming to Spamfield by the fee involved. This is a shame, because unlike French microlighters generally, many are fluent in English and enjoy visiting this country.

As for the CAA fee, it is £51 per visit, while the Belgian permit covers multiple visits upto a maximum of 30 days in a year.

Admittedly, I may be a bit biased, because I spent 7 years flying microlights in Luxembourg and most non-local flights were to Belgium, where I have many aviating friends.

gasax · Post by **gasax** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:29 am

What do people actually do?

Well they largely follow the advice I was given by a certain Belgian FBO - just ignore it - "we have never heard of anyone being ramp checked or even challenged by the authorities. It is just stupid bureaucracy".

Having said that it is pretty straight forward to apply for and get it. And why would you go there - actually it is an attractive and interesting place!! Welcoming airfields generally and food as good as France (and so similarities in terms of abiding by the rules!).

The rules have had the effect of forcing owners to either base in Belgian or locate their aircraft over the border. I was surprised by the number of Belgians owning aircraft on the French side of the border - usually F registered......

Donald Walker · Post by **Donald Walker** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:36 pm

That is quite true Gasax, but it is for each visitor to decide what to do. We don't want somebody coming back on here claiming he/she was given bad advice.

A problem will certainly arise if there is an incident and the permit is not in place.

I also agree about the welcoming airfields with good food.

Pilots in the area around Schengen, where the borders of France, Luxembourg and Germany meet, with Belgium only a few miles away, visit each other's airfields regularly without permits or flight plans. The freedom to cross borders is taken seriously and the attitude is: "No, I don't have a permit and didn't file a FPL, but I did slow down for the crossing".

Steve Brown · Post by **Steve Brown** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:44 pm

....so though we should get a Belgium permit to keep legal in the event of an accident.........but ref pilots around Schengen, the legal ICAO requirement for a FP when crossing an international boundary can be and is being routinely ignored ???? - and that has no effect on the legality of the flight and validity of any insurance if 'there is an incident' ?????

I would guess a problem could similary arise there in the event of an incident.

I dont doubt Belgium has many attractions but do the authorities want/welcome us and is it worth the hassle & cost?

Donald Walker · Post by **Donald Walker** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:48 pm

I dont doubt Belgium has many attractions but do the authorities want/welcome us and is it worth the hassle & cost?

Apart from those flying homebuilts, all foreign pilots flying PtF aircraft, except the French, must ask themselves the same question about the UK.

I happen to think both countries are worth the hassle and cost.

Roger Camp · Post by **Roger Camp** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:44 am

In reply to some of the queries raised above. I can only heartily agree with Donald. Yes we schnegen pilots do regularly flaunt the rules and are allowed to do so.( I disagree with Donalds thing about the food. The Belgian food is far better than the scraps you get on your plate in France. ) The policing of the schengen road and airways is much more civilized and friendly in comparison to the rozzer domain on the island. So stop querying and get yer 4 letters in the cockpit and see for yourself first hand. You will be back

gasax · Post by **gasax** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:44 am

The OP asked what do people actually do - and I gave that answer.

Given that within Schengen there are only the empty hulks of the frontier crossings, the aeronautical practices have severely lagged behind the developments on the ground. The last time I came back rom there I was listening to an microlight aircraft, probably out of the Netherlands, doing a coastal tour. He routed down the coast and into France, just before I left Ostend's frequency he was coming back - all without flight plan, permit etc..

In northern Germany and southern Denmark there is an official agreement to not require a FP for border crossing flights - which seems really sensible - so it will never catch on!

Steve Brown · Post by **Steve Brown** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:28 am

I guess that was my point - if you fulfil excessively onerous bureaucratic' requirements, it encourages them, or at least maintains the status quo. By avoiding paying these charges just by staying away, one is at least (legally) making a point that just may encourage a re-think.

Clearly it seems Germany & Denmark have come to a rational 'official' solution - whether that came from the reality of widespread disobedience or enlightened authorities, who knows?

You are right - aviation has not caught up with EU free movement principles/ideals. Why cant we be as free to move around Europe in an aircraft as in a car?

All this parallels to proposed compulsory microchipping of all dogs. 53% already do it out of choice - most likely responsible, caring dog owners, for their own purposes.

Politicians somehow then think that 100% compliance will solve dangerous dogs ('most dog owners already do it so what's the problem of making it compulsory ?' Just loss of freedom and more rules/laws to fall foul of.) But the irresponsible owners will ignore it anyway, and it wont stop a dog attacking anyone.

Same with cycle helmets - most people wear them out of choice, so doubtless soon they will be compulsory. Precedent : motorcycle helmets and car seatbelts.

Donald Walker · Post by **Donald Walker** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:22 pm

( I disagree with Donalds thing about the food. The Belgian food is far better than the scraps you get on your plate in France. )

Hey, wait a minute, in reference to Belgium I said:

I also agree about the welcoming airfields with good food.

Nigel Hitchman · Post by **Nigel Hitchman** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:51 pm

wasnt there a court case several years ago when a group of Belgians owning French registered microlights took the government to court over preventing their freedom of movement? I think they won.
A Belgian friend told me last week that many Belgian glider clubs hve now all registered their gliders in Germany due to problems with the Belgian CAA.
Several years ago a UK Permit aircraft had a sucessful forced landing in a field near a fly-in. Police came to see it. Think there was a problem with one cylinder. Proposal was to repair the cylinder and fly the aircraft out of the field. The police/authorities didnt like this so the aircraft was dismantled and taken to another airfield where the engine was repaired, aircraft re-assembled and then flown back to the UK, another UK permit aircraft took the pilot back to pick up his aircraft when it was completed. I asked them what they did about the Belgian "permission" neither pilot knew you even needed to have it and they werent asked for it when there, even after the incident!
But also several years ago a friend with an LAA permit aircraft based in Belgium, was told that he had to get the permission every year, despite having operated the aircraft in Belgium for several years without it. He no longer has that aircraft.

I would really hope this can be sorted out. Is there any current LAA negotiations with the Belgian CAA on this matter. If they want to stop Belgian pilots owning foreign registered permit aircraft then surely this doesnt mean they need to prevent overseas based foreign registered aircraft visiting without paying a large fee.

I also agree the CAA shouldnt be charging visitors in foreign non homebuilt microlights. Surely these are all EASA aircraft now, shouldnt they have freedom of movement in EASA land??