IMC in LAA?

[Gavin Bell]

I'm guessing this has been flogged to within an inch, but what are the real issues against appropriately equipped LAA aircraft being allowed to fly legally in IMC?
Is there enough interest / realistic chance to lobby for this?

Gavin

[G.Dawes]

It doesn't seem to stop long distance flyers doing IFR abroad, to South Africa etc. in permit aircraft it only seems to be here.

[Gavin Bell]

It seems that many pilots of LAA registered aircraft don't bother with an IMC since they can't legally fly their (our) aircraft in IMC. The associated knowledge and skills however could be a life saver someday.....
But of course the question remains - why not allow IMC in appropriately equipped permit aircraft?

[John Price]

How about IFR/IMC in an EASA permit aircraft.

Is it legal ?

John.

[Brian Hope]

Hi Gavin. There is a team working on gaining night and IMC privileges for suitably equipped LAA Permit aircraft. It has been working consistently on the issue for two or three years now and appears to be making some headway. Maybe 2013 will be the year when agreement is reached, we can but hope.
It is perhaps worth mentioning that it is possible to do IMC training in your suitably equipped permit aircraft.

[2greens1red]

Is there any proposal, even in draft form, for the IFR avionics/instrument requirement for a permit a/c, that can be seen? We're at the initial design stage of our panel, on a Eurofox build, and it would be seriously useful to have this information. Modifications after completion could be tricky, if not impractical.

[darnold]

It would be great to learn a bit more about the plans for progressing this and status. For example, who is on the working group and what proposals are being made? The only information I have been able to find is a set of minutes of a PFA meeting held back in 2007.

Is there an opportunity for members to lend there support to the efforts underway, assuming they are still underway and progressing.

[Steve Brown]

Hi Richard
I am no expert on this but the mandatory (all) aircraft equipment requirements for day VFR, night & IFR in differing categories of controlled /uncontrolled airspace are set out in the ANO (aka CAP 393 Part 4 Sections 37-41 as listed in Schedule 4 http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/cap393.pdf).

Granted the ANO & even CAP393 is not easy to navigate (forgive the pun) ie no page numbers! but it is all there. I doubt the current, and lets face it not particularly onerous, mandatory requirements (other perhaps than a lighter regulatory touch for approved equipment) would be relaxed even if the quite separate 'Day/ VFR only' restriction was removed or amended for Permit aircraft.
Regards
Steve

[Brian Hope]

Hi Dean, the permit IFR/Night issue is on-going. An LAA working group has been actively progressing this for quite a while now, sometimes making good progress and sometimes being faced with new hurdles to overcome. There is optimism within the group that it will eventually succeed but there is no known end date at this time. Thanks for the offer of help, if the working group requires additional assistance no doubt it will make it known here or via the magazine.

[mbarnard]

Hi all,

Sorry for not spotting this thread until now, but better late than never.

Obtaining Night & IFR privileges for certain LAA Permit aircraft has been an active project within LAA for quite some while now and has been under discussion with CAA since 2010. The LAA working group comprises myself, Mike Jackson, Steve Noujaim, Pete Pengilly, plus from HQ Francis Donaldson.

A risk-based 'airworthiness bridging standard' has been developed and largely agreed with CAA, along with common-sense application of aircraft type selection criteria and equipment approval standards. We also have a defined application process, continued airworthiness requirements, and are working on identifying 'approved persons' to handle elements of the approvals process which fall outside LAA's present Day/VFR remit. We are also in the process of updating out CAA Approval in order to enable us to make the necessary revisions to Permit Operating Limitations. None of these are insuperable and, as Brian has alluded to, although we do not have a definitive 'first approval' date, it really should not be far away!

I shall give some thought to producing an LA magazine article on where we are on this subject so as to assist those of our members who are close to decision point on their projects.

The offers of help are really very much appreciated but, again to paraphrase Brian, we are hopefully beyond that stage. That said, if anyone with a good technical / professional qualification in electronics and with a firm grip on avionics / electrical power architecture engineering wishes to apply to become an Approved Person, we'd love to hear from you!

Lastly, an IMCR allows the holder of a UK PPL the same VFR-on-top privilege as that available to the holder of a Part-FCL (EASA) PPL. So its definately worth doing while we have it.

I hope that helps.

Mike Barnard
Permit IFR lead

[darnold]

I was encouraged by Mike's response a few months back.

What are the implications of his move to the CAA in May (since he was the LAA's lead on this matter)? I assume things continue to progress and someone else has picked-up his responsibility on behalf of the LAA. I also hope that Mike's move to the CAA may mean an even greater chance of getting this across the line.

Thanks,
Dean

[darnold]

Any chance of an update? I read that the CAA is in discussions with the LAA but it would be great to get a sense of what is being proposed so we could begin to plan/build accordingly.

[Brian Hope]

Hi Dean. All I can say is that this is an on-going issue. Current status I believe is that instrument suitability/spec is under discussion and until that is settled it isn't possible to publish any details of what will be necessary. The fact that the discussions were mentioned by CAA in a Press Release can perhaps be taken as a positive sign that this issue is progressing in the right direction. As soon as we are able to publish anything on what the requirements are for IMC/Night we will do so. It is, unfortunately, impossible to put time scales on these things.

[darnold]

Brian,

Thanks for the response. Who is now leading on this for the LAA? Also, why can't the LAA share the draft specification for discussion and comment. This is the normal protocol that most membership organisations would adopt (as well as goverment organisations) so a bit surprised by what feels like a secretive process. Surely, it would be better to engage and consult with the membership (shareholder community) in a more open and collaborative way.

[Brian Hope]

Hi Dean, if LAA was discussing the possibility of Night/IFR and was deciding on instrument fit, redundancy, whether to allow non-certified electronic displays and if so based on what criteria, installation approvals and inspection, annual inspection procedures, lightning protection etc etc and was able to make those decisions entirely on its own, then yes a full and frank engagement with the members as part of the decision making process would quite rightly be an expectation.
Unfortunately it isn't that straightforward a process because LAA is not in that position, it has to go to the CAA and convince them of the arguments. There is much toing and froing, LAA makes a proposal and presents data to support it, CAA comes back with further requirements or questions the safety data. It's a long process but bit by bit the LAA has been presenting solutions that the CAA is happy with.
Although Mike Barnard had moved on, the team he established to move this issue forward is still working, and LAA Engineering will become increasingly involved now because it is reaching the stage where the nuts and bolts aspects are being discussed. I am not involved in any of this personally but I have far greater confidence that this will come to fruition than I had five years ago. We just have to be patient and let those involved in the project resolve the problems and hopefully find solutions that everybody can work with. As I say, as soon as we are able we will publish guidelines for owners on what criteria their aircraft have to meet to be considered for Night/IFR. At the moment we simply aren't there yet.