Notam usage please help!

[Mike Cross]

I'm over 50 and fly an aeroplane that was built before I was. I don't have a degree and the people I represent on the NC also fly 60 year old aeroplanes. If the people you represent mostly "hate the Notam system, do not trust it, and cannot use it" then perhaps they should question whether they ought to be blundering about in an environment they don't understand. I suspect the reality is that you do them a great disservice with your comments and they are far more capable than you think.

I just got the NOTAM (15 of them) for a 20 mile wide route from Popham to Wharf Farm, returning tomorrow. It took me less than 5 mins inc logging in.

Tent and sleeping bag found, now all I need is something for the barbie and a bottle of wine.

[John Dean]

Well I have to say that I am even older than Mike Cross and have no problems with the Notam system. Like most other things in life you have to put a bit of effort in to understand how the system works and what is and isn't permissible to use as waypoints but once you have done that it really does only take a few minutes to get a brief.

The new "Point Brief" is a great help when just doing a local jolly and the only other type I use is the "Narrow Route" brief. I feel much better informed than before Notams were available on line especially as I operate from a strip where the Notams were never available.

The system is not perfect for our needs in any sense but if it is a question of learning to use what we have been given or paying for something better, as an exiled Yorkshireman, there is no contest.

Perhaps local struts ought to consider holding "Teach-Ins" to help those having problems making the system work for them.

[Rod1]

“Perhaps local struts ought to consider holding "Teach-Ins" to help those having problems making the system work for them.”

I have offered such help and have given short talks to local flying clubs which is part of the reason I hold the views I do! One of the problems is quite a few of the pilots, who think they are getting the right info are not and do not realize it. I have suggested a simple “gross error check” in the form of a map, so we will see if this comes to pass.

The survey which I started this thread with will give us more info on usage, but obviously it will only be filled in by the more computer literate end of the spectrum!

Rod1

[leiafee]

I think it's difficult to separate the interface from the content. Intepreting the NOTAM itself seems to be just something tha has to be learnt, like the TAFS adn other met abbreviations, like the r/t, like all the airlaw gubbins, and that's just tough!

When the problem is the interface it's something different. The old site, clunky as it was worked much better on my PDA than the new one and since one reason for buying the thing in the first place was to get NOTAM when away from home so I was a bit dismayed by that.

It wasn't easy to learn to use so it's natural that people will feel slightly peeved at having to relearn a new system if they don't see any positive improvement -- aesthetics alone are not enough.

It's not enough to dismiss it as a minor change to be learnt. To people who aren't au fait with computers minor changes ARE confusing enough to be a stumbing block. I have trainees at work who panic if they're confronted with a different layout of their desktop items when they log on.

You only have to glance at the techy news to see what a disaster Vista has been in spite of the claimed improvement people don't want it because it looks different and they have to relearn how to do things!

Being able to adapt to changes and guess the right action is something that only comes with having a confident grasp of the technology.

The point brief is a positive improvement but the removal of the option to put VFR in the flight level box is a pity -- I'm always left worrying what happens if I put in something higher or lower than I end up flying? How much of a margin is there? What does it ignore if you put in something outrageously high or low by accident?

Mike, you may know the answer to that one actually?

I'm also having trouble with the "briefing handbooK" I can only get recent briefs, the "all briefings doens't appear to work" so the minute the system doesn't consider my routes "recent" I can to recreate them if I want the same route again.

Annoyances like that wind people up out of all proportion t their seriousness -- that's the nature of software usability -- ANY usabilty in fact -- how many temper tantrums are there on Christmas morning because daddy can't figure out which to stick the batteries in, or which way to plug in this years whizzbang games machine to the telly?

That was a bit garbled, but what I wanted to get across is that the people complaining probably don't think their problems are petty or minor as has sort of been implied.

[tnowak]

Leiafee,

Slightly off thread, but have you tried YAWS for NOTAM access? There is a link to OLIVIA sourced NOTAMs which display perfectly on my PDA (HP IPaq). http://yaws.mobi and then click on EU YAWS / OLIVIA SOURCED NOTAMS etc. Worked really well for me during my recent French trip.
TN

[leiafee]

Leiafee,

Slightly off thread, but have you tried YAWS for NOTAM access?

Nope, but I will now. Cheers for that.

[Mike Cross]

Mike, you may know the answer to that one actually?

Part of the problem innit? If you were perfectly happy putting in "VFR" without knowing what it meant then it perhaps wasn't such a good idea (It was the same as putting 120 in). It wasn't always there, it was intoroduced in the latter part of the old site's life.

Re the Briefing Handbook, I was about to agree with you that it didn't work when I discovered that there's a delay (about 7 seconds in my case) in refreshing the screen.

You have to click the radio button for "all items" and then click "Refresh". When nothing appears to happen you assume it's not working but if you wait it appears. I'll pass this up the line. If they can't eliminate the delay I'll ask for an hourglass or something.

There is a consultation meeting coming up. If anyone has any specifics like this issue please let me know. There will be two people from Eurocontrol there so it's a good opportunity.

Re abbreviations, they're all in the AIP GEN 2.2 - 11 pages of bedtime reading!

I know people don't like change - oh how I hated flying that Cirrus with the funny sidestick and those TV screens! OK, a flippant answer. I appreciate that we all react against change but most of the time it's simply because it IS change, not because it's worse.

Don't get too hung up on NOTAM, I'd be the first to admit that the bulk of what you see is probably not relevant to you but most of it is relevant to someone. All you need do is develope the knack of spotting the bits you need.

[Dave Hall]

I can sympathise with the Vista comment, having just got a new computer - but like the Notams site it's not that hard to do once you try, and works quite well really, both Vista and AIS/NATS (thanks to my son for uploading many of my old programs and years of output).

There isn't a short cut to learning Notam language. The Narrow Route Brief only gives a limited number if you select VFR and a sensible height - I think they give you 4,000' above anyway.

I was disappointed the old site didn't keep the saved briefings for all that long - maybe a month - but obviously they've better things to use the spare server memory for.

I'm still puzzled by the crazy radii of influence included in some reports, whether of navigation light or radar failure in a remote part of the country from where I'm flying. Things like that need some extra checking and filtering out - they shouldn't appear on a narrow route brief at all if they're that far away.

The more clutter that isn't needed, the more likely something important will be missed.

The old site Tutorial is still up on http://www.flyers.org.uk site but I've not upgraded it to the new one yet - it may still be helpful.

Hope this is constructive.

[John Brady]

Mike,

I am happy that I can print a route and local area brief from the new AIS site and it is not difficult or time consuming. For a text brief it entirely adequate.

However, for the last couple of years I have been using a graphic display (NOTAMPRO) to get an idea of problem areas best avoided but it can no longer download the PIB. It was particularly good for drawing up complex areas such as big flypasts. I have some difficulty believing that NATS had to change the PIB in this way. Nevertheless I find I can still use it by cutting and pasting but it is quite cumbersome.

I was jolly annoyed to find, after several days of using NOTAMPRO and before I realised the system had changed, that it was downloading the PIB for 08/05/29 08:00 UTC TO 08/05/31 08:00 UTC because NATS appear to have left the 31 May NOTAMS live on the web. I wonder if you could ask them to take it off so nobody else flies with out-of-date data.

[Mike Cross]

Well I could certainly do that if you gave me the URL that was causing you the problem, or you could do it by sending an e-mail to [email protected] (I suggest you check the URL first to ensure it's still doing it)

I've just gone to http://pibs.nats.co.uk/operational/pibs/pib3.shtml which is the URL for the EGTT contingency brief and it's valid for today (02 JUL 2008 08:00 - 03 JUL 2008 08:00)

I DO NOT recommend using this data source. For a start it's only updated every 4 hours, and secondly it only gives you 24 hour validity. It's now 11:50 and the brief on there is very nearly 4 hours old. If I was going to stay overnight at a strip as I did on Saturday I'd have no NOTAM for my return journey. Far better to use the main site that gives you a live query on the database that is 100% up to date and a validity period you can choose in order to get the coverage you need.

I suspect your problem you had may be due to one of two things:-
1. Your web browser was returning a cached page
or
2. The software was unable to interpret the data it received and reverted to the last known good data (no idea if this is so, you'd need to check with the author).

The changes were notified in advance by NOTAM and there was a period of some weeks with dual running to allow users to adjust. Unfortunately many seem not to have done so.

[leiafee]

Mike, you may know the answer to that one actually?

Part of the problem innit? If you were perfectly happy putting in "VFR" without knowing what it meant then it perhaps wasn't such a good idea (It was the same as putting 120 in). It wasn't always there, it was intoroduced in the latter part of the old site's life.

Hmm I think I did know that actually. Pretty sure I got it from your instructions!

I didn't though logically apply that and deduce that the height is an upper limit and you get everything below that, and carry on putting in 120 after the change. Instead I revert to what I did before I knew about the VFR thing and hazard a guess at my probable altitude.

My fault I suppose, but the system does make it a bit too easy to shoot yourself in the foot.

Although, on that note some of the new bits do make that harder -- the one already mentioned is the dropdown dates.

Re the Briefing Handbook, I was about to agree with you that it didn't work when I discovered that there's a delay (about 7 seconds in my case) in refreshing the screen.

That's forever on broadband

It does work though, I stand corrected.

[John Brady]

Thanks Mike, very helpful. John

[Rod1]

Thank you all for contributing. The results are;

http://fly.dsc.net/surveyresponses.html

Rod1

[Joe Iszard]

My East Anglian 'hangar' neighbour flew to the Scilly Isles last weekend, before going he checked and printed the notams - all 58 pages. seemed a bit excessive to me!

[Mike Cross]

It seems the same to me. He must be doing something wrong. If he still has the printouts PM me with the identification number printed at the top left and I'll get it checked out.