Building in France

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linspuk
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:07 pm
Location: Chesham, Bucks

Building in France

Post by linspuk » Mon May 05, 2014 8:37 pm

I wasn't sure which Forum section to put this in. We are planning to move to France in a few years time, so I guess I'll be joining the RSA then, but I was wondering if they use the same regime of inspection and permits in France as we do in the UK. My French isn't up to scratch yet to read their web pages and google translate is not that great. Can anyone please give me an idea of how homebuilding works in France please? I'm thinking of starting a new aircraft when we are settled there, regardless of the status of my current LAA projects.
Thanks
Lindsay Pennell
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Brian Hope
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Location: Sheerness Kent

Re: Building in France

Post by Brian Hope » Tue May 06, 2014 5:31 pm

Hi Lindsay.
The RSA has, until very recently, had no direct involvement with the approval and continuing airworthiness of the Experimental (homebuilt) fleet; all regulatory functions were outside of their control.
A nongovernmental sub-contractor, the Organisme pour la Sécurité de l'Aviation Civile (OSAC), carries out build and final inspections, authorises approval for test flying and recommends the issue of a Permit (a CDNR – Certificat de Navigabilité Restreint) from the DGAC (Direction Générale de l’Aviation Civile, their equivalent of our CAA). DGAC look after Initial Airworthiness Approval, project registration, and modification and repair scheme approval.
RSA only assisted members in discussions with the DGAC and OSAC, and offered builder advice. You do not even need to be a member of RSA to build a homebuilt aircraft, and sadly many homebuilt aircraft builders and owners are not RSA members.
In 2013 the RSA formed a partner association – RSANAV - to take on a more direct involvement in the continuing airworthiness of the Experimental fleet.
It is early days but if you are moving to France in a few years’ time, the likelihood is that RSANAV will have become increasingly involved in more of the homebuilding processes than they are at the moment.
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richwald
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Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:01 am

Re: Building in France

Post by richwald » Fri May 09, 2014 1:03 pm

Just a clarification -
There are several different categories of non-ICAO airworthiness cerificates in France. Brian refers to CDNR which is used for "orphan" aircraft; French factory-built aircraft with no current Type Cerficate holder, e.g. SAN or CEA built Jodels. Homebuilt aircraft fly under a CNRA (Certificat de Navigabilité Restreint d'Aéronef) - registration is F-Pxxx. Certain vintage aircraft fly under a CNRAC (Certificat de Navigabilité Restreint d'Aéronef de Collection) - registration is F-AZxx or F-AYxx since the AZ series ran out recently. Kit built aircraft fly under a CNSK (Certificat de Navigabilité Spéciale d'Aéronef en Kit) - also on the F-P register.
Rich Wald
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Brian Hope
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Location: Sheerness Kent

Re: Building in France

Post by Brian Hope » Sat May 10, 2014 7:00 am

Thanks for the clarification Richard. Hope the Mascaret is still giving you good service. Richard has lived in France for many years and certainly knows the system better than I so I hope he’ll correct anything that is wrong below and add any relevant detail.
Although the French paperwork system sounds a bit complicated, I have gained the impression after many pigeon English/French and arm waving discussions with French owners over the years that designing and building is more relaxed over there than in the UK, with their regime leaning more towards a true Experimental system than ours. One offs for instance, are far more prevalent in France than they are here. I believe a designer has to submit a design dossier to the DGAC with stress calcs etc, and accept full responsibility for it. That dossier is retained but nobody approves it or otherwise, it is simply ‘evidence’ in the event of a mishap. The builder then gets on with the build and flight testing. The design is given an F-WXXX registration to show it is a prototype and when its flight test period has been satisfactorily completed it will move to the usual F-PXXX homebuilt register.
As a builder I believe that you can do your own annuals on your completed aircraft, with an ‘official’ (not sure whether that is OSAC or DGAC) inspection only required every three years. If you buy a homebuilt I don't believe you have that same privilege and all annuals have to be carried out by OSAC/DGAC.
Interestingly, kits were not allowed in France for quite a while after they had become commonplace in the UK. They are now, but it was only maybe fifteen years or so ago that the authorities relented.
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linspuk
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Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:07 pm
Location: Chesham, Bucks

Re: Building in France

Post by linspuk » Sat May 10, 2014 6:56 pm

Brian and Richard,
Thanks so much for all that info. Richard, I may tap you for more advice later on. I'm hoping to take a completed project over with me, but if it's not completed then I may seek to complete it under French regs - but a lot is speculation at present until nearer the point when I can retire!
Thanks again,
Lindsay
Lindsay Pennell
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Barry Ward
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Re: Building in France

Post by Barry Ward » Sun May 18, 2014 10:37 am

Before you start to build anything you should first contact Monsieur Bezeau OSAC PARIS, tel 01 41 46 10 82
to see if the plane you want is on the approved list. If not you will have to provide information on the plane and structure as well as calculations to show that it is well designed. Also during the build process there are a series of inspections that the OSAC has to carry out such as inspect the wing before it is closed up and possibly the main spar if the plane is intended for aerobatics.
Hence it is not a simple case of building part of a plane in the UK that mabe LAA approved and taking it to Fance to complete the rest of it.

linspuk
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:07 pm
Location: Chesham, Bucks

Re: Building in France

Post by linspuk » Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:46 pm

Barry - thanks for that essential guidance. All of the above has been very helpful in formulating my ideas for later on. Cheers all.
Lindsay Pennell
017896

Allanf
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Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:11 pm

Re: Building in France

Post by Allanf » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:33 pm

Hi Lindsay

I realise this is an old thread but I was wandering how you got on with your project over in France.
I am currently acting as an agent for a new type in the UK. We have registered the project with the LAA and are just about to commence the build.
We would also like to promote the type in France so ideally would like to involve RSANAV / OSAC so that the acceptance could take place in both countries simultaneously.
Some months back I attempted to contact Philippe Bezeau of Oscac via email several times but received no response.
I would be very grateful for any information advice you could offer.

Regards

Allan French

linspuk
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:07 pm
Location: Chesham, Bucks

Re: Building in France

Post by linspuk » Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:57 pm

I've responded directly to Allan via PM, but for completeness on this thread, I advised him that as I've not yet managed to move to France (Brexit uncertainty), I'm unable to advise him on my experiences in homebuilding there.
Lindsay Pennell
017896

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