First Aircraft - any suggestions?

[gbandera]

Hi, I've just joined the LAA and thought it would be worthwhile seeing what thoughts you all might have on my current deliberation.

I am looking for a Group A aircraft for myself (and for my wife who is currently learning to fly - result! ). I was pondering 4 seaters (or larger) with a view to taking the LAPL to full PPL etc., but have decided to concentrate on the bulk of flying I (and eventually my wife will be doing) in terms of a purchase, and then hire anything outside this.

We have a good relationship with a local flight school, and am looking to buy something (possibly jointly with them) that would be suitable for my hours building, along with training use for them to offset some of the operational costs. If I can find something then this means I have their hangerage and a convenient strip to fly from thrown in too!

So, main mission requirements are currently;

• - Suitable for training - ie. LAPL (so sadly that rules out kit built as I understand it).
  - Able to operate from a 600m or so grass strip, comfortably.
  - Low wing (single engine piston – obviously)
  - Be at least 2 seat, preferably side-by-side.
  - Ideally Rotax (or Jabiru) powered.
  - Well behaved (nothing too exciting in terms of flight dynamics given the mission!)
  - Ability to pick up a good used example (without an immediate impending engine requirement, etc.) for £30k to £50k

As you will all have probably determined already – the budget is my biggest issue! The candidates I’ve identified as potentially suitable are;

• - Aero AT-3
  - Evektor Sportstar
  - Tecnam P2002
  - Tecnam Astore
  - Czech Sport Aircraft PS28 Sport Cruiser
  - Aerospool WT9 Dynamic
  - Alpi Aviation Pioneer (200 or 300)
  - Ultralight TL2000
  - Breezer LSA
  - The Airplane Factory Sling 4
  - Evektor VUT100 Cobra
  - Robin HR200/100

So, all the LSA types are close to impossible on the budget, and the Robin is obviously older an non-Rotax / Jabiru and so as I understand will have significantly higher operating costs!

This therefor brings me to the reason for the post;

• 1) Are any of the above ‘off the list’ for reasons other than budget?
  2) Are any aircraft that might be available in budget that match the mission profile missing from the list?
  3) Am I just looking for something that doesn’t exist in that mission profile for that budget?

Any help appreciated…

[ColinC]

Hi,

I stand to be corrected, but according to my understanding of the rules there seem to be flaws in that plan.

The permit aircraft you list can only be used for ab-initio training if wholly owned by the pilot under training, or a close relative of the owner (like your wife). I don't think that a flying school would be able to use it just for that reason, and there are other regulations that apply to hiring aircraft for training.

Jon Cooke the LAA chief coach will probably be the guy on the forum to discuss that with, but the flying school you are discussing it with should know.

regards,

Colin

[gbandera]

Hi Colin, thanks for the quick response. That's really a key point to the question - which aircraft could be purchased and used in that way, if that discounts much of the list then so be it!

I'm new to a lot of this so please forgive any mistakes, but I thought Permit To Fly were restricted as you suggest, whereas CofA aircraft can be (specifics of ownership pending investigation).

I have no idea at the minute as to which of that list are strictly permit, having only narrowed it on the initial criteria of must be factory built (again this was part of the reason for the list in that people could hopefully advise which are not appropriate). I do believe (please correct if wrong) that at least one (the Robin) is a CofA aircraft and so would potentially be viable on a shared ownership or similar basis?

What I am trying to do is identify a potential list of aircraft before exploring this more formally with the school as I want to a) be a bit better informed b) ensure there is something that I would like to own etc. before wasting their time...

(If there is any list anywhere that has all current CofA aircraft that would be a useful reference point - assuming of course shared ownership of a CofA aircraft would make training possible for a wider audiance than just me and my wife, as I really can't factor the costs of marrying everyone that might use the aircraft!)

Thanks once again for the response and hopefully I'm not too wide of the mark / naive so as this entire thread is a stupid question!

[Brian Hope]

Hi Antony and welcome to the LAA. As you are discovering, aviation can be a little puzzzling but you'll soon pick up the basics. I'll try to answer your question re the list, not guaranteeing this is gospel as things change but I am reasonably happy this reflects the current status.

Aero AT-3 - Yes this is OK for a school. The flying school at Northampton Sywell has three on its fleet and I think there are several more being used in the training role. It was once available as a kit but I'm not sure whether any kitbuilts are currently in the UK, the only one I know of was destroyed. A kitbuilt example would not be eligible for hire and reward.

Evektor SportStar - Yes if it is a factory built RTC model which has EASA approval. There is a kitbuilt SportStar in the UK that would not be eligible. The more basic Eurostar model can only be used for microlight training, and then only if it is a factory built example.

Tecnam P2002 - Yes if it is factory built. There are a number of kitbuilts in the UK that would not be eligible.

Tecnam Astore - Currently not approved by EASA so not eligible.

Czech Sport Aircraft PS28 Sport Cruiser - Yes but do not confuse with the homebuilt SportCruiser or the factory built Piper Sport examples that were given an EASA Permit to Fly, neither of which are eligible.

Aerospool WT9 Dynamic - Not sure but believe only approved as a factory built microlight so not eligible for SEP/SSEA training.

Alpi Aviation Pioneer (200 or 300) - Not eligible.

Ultralight TL2000 - Not eligible.

Breezer LSA - Yes.

The Airplane Factory Sling 4 - Not aware that it has even been submitted for EASA approval, it is built in South Africa.

Evektor VUT100 Cobra - Do not believe it yet has EASA approval so not eligible.

Robin HR200/100 - Yes.

There are a number of aircraft that are privately owned and leased to flying schools to defray the cost of ownership. I don't doubt that this arrangement can work, but be very careful. The schools are not in business to do you any favours, be very sure the long term future of your aircraft is adequately financially covered; you don't want to end up five years down the road with a tired aeroplane and a time expired engine that is going to cost you a fortune to put right. Before jumping in with both feet, consider a syndicate to spread the costs, or buy something lower down the price scale that won't stretch your finances. The latter two options mean you can look at Permit to Fly aircraft as an option and without doubt PtF can make ownership more affordable.
LAA will be at Aero Expo in three weeks’ time, if you intend going then by all means pop in for a chat.

[Nick Allen]

If you cast your search net to mainland Europe you might find some Tecnams (which are lovely!) that fall into your price range: have a look at http://www.planecheck.com

[gbandera]

Thank you Brian for all the information - really helps! Yep, I'm only low hours qualified myself so the permit, CofA and all the associated detail surrounding aircraft themselves is new territory for me - but the mist is starting to clear the more I read and the more input I get.

Thanks also for the cautionary point in terms of the school - I've focused research on the costs of ownership and already made a big note about airframe / engine time (and the big ticket costs associated). I'll only go into anything 'eyes open' and a syndicate is also very much an option. I'm viewing this as a 'disposable' investment (nothing to do with my wife's standard of flying - which I'm told is quite good!! ) - basically I'm capping the purchase budget to what I can afford to walk away from in a few years, hence not stretching myself. Reality is a few years down the line we will likely have very different wants, needs and the mission profile will change too I expect. So if the school is involved the framework will likely be to sell the aircraft onto them fully in a few years and go buy something else at that point.

I am planning to attend Sywell (with the family in tow), so thanks for the invite and will look to come say hi

Nick - funny you should say that, the Tecnam is at the top of my list, so thanks for the link! Hadn't considered outside the UK yet as I need to research duty, import and how involved it is re-registering (or whatever the process would be to permanently base something imported from in the UK).

Clearly lots to research and even more to deliberate, but its all fun (at least whilst the weather keeps me on the ground!). Thanks for the input everyone - as I say...it's really appreciated.

[Graham Clark]

Personally, I would strongly advise against doing any back-to-back deal with a Flying School, which is likely to put you to serious inonveneince and frustration. We all know how UK weather works: on average, a good CAVOK day once a week. The rest are marginal to unflyable. The school will accept bookings and 'need' your aircraft on the day the sun shines: "pupil shortly before solo; another training aircraft gone tech; aircraft needs a 50 hr check", etc. The excuses will be be endless, but the outcome the same: you will not get the use of your aeroplane on the day you want it. You will not be able spontaneously to turn up and fly just because you feel like it. If you reject this advice, buy the same kind of aeroplane the school already has: spares and maintenance skills more readily available. More serviceability.

My recommendation is to forget any thoughts of an 'arrangement' with the school. Buy a lower cost LAA Permit aircraft (there are plenty from which to choose at or below 20K) and put it in a nice dry hangar for your exclusive use.

[John Price]

Hi Antony,

How many hours do you think that you will want to fly each year?

John.

[Chris Martyr]

Hi Antony,
Welcome to the LAA and to this forum. Joining the LAA was definitely a very good move , as there is a whole wealth of knowledge and resources amongst the membership , and somewhere in this aviation jungle will be the right folk to point you in the direction of the right aeroplane .

Going to Sywell is also a good move, as there will be so many different aircraft there and you will get a real good insight of what gets the old juices flowing , along with the opportunities to talk face to face with their owner/builders.

I have noticed that the main wave of opinion here is not totally in favour of jumping into bed with your local flying school , and all I can say to that is , Hear-Hear .
I'm sure that yourself and your good lady wife have cultivated a great relationship with the flying school and the money that you have put their way will probably guarantee you both a place at the top table for every Christmas do they have for at least the rest of the century. But unfortunately , I also think that the best way of undoing all that goodwill , is to go into an aircraft deal with them .
Even if none of the points that Graham made turn into reality, the chances are that you will turn up to fly , only to find the windscreen filthy, leading edge of the prop. covered in bugs , fuel nearly empty and not to mention the 'minor' defects which just appeared and no-one thought significant.

Also, if you don't decide to go into an agreement with the flying school , try and get your hangarage sorted out prior to buying anything , as that is the most important issue. I know one or two people who acquired hangar space and then bought another aircraft which then didn't fit . That's a great way of getting no sympathy from the airfield owners by the way.
Lastly, I fully acknowledge that flight schools have their place in aviation as none of us would have licences otherwise, but they do tend to be a bit of a closed shop .

I hope that the replies to your post haven't left you bewildered Antony , as I'm sure many who have made similar posts probably end up being confused by the plethora of different answers they get.
My advice is , try and find hangarage at a good LAA friendly strip . It's better than being in any flying club. And the definition of a flying instructor ? An expensive irritant, and you can't get him out of the passenger seat 'til you've taught yourself to fly the darn thing .
Good luck mate ! I know it'll be fine .