Welshman moaned about the difficulty of finding an inspector, a bit of bish bash bosh , and what we have the germ of a list of inspectors on Google Maps.
Now folks have to expand on it, we can all do our bit by adding our inspector.
That's what moaning gets you.
Thanks Ron. They also server...
Where are the EC Members hiding ?
Moderators: John Dean, Moderator
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Brian Hope
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:28 pm
- Location: Sheerness Kent
Pete, I do not see this thread as a moan either, it asked a reasonable question and I have tried to give an explanation as to why rather too many people have little time for the BB.
I can also assure you that Mach2 is one of the good guys who does a huge amount of excellent work for us, the members. If he has a poor impression of the BB then maybe my diagnosis holds some water. As I say, posters can refuse to believe there is a problem, or they can take it on the chin and do something about it, such as not tolerating a minority who tarnish this medium with crass comments about staff and volunteers who are doing the best job they can.
I can also assure you that Mach2 is one of the good guys who does a huge amount of excellent work for us, the members. If he has a poor impression of the BB then maybe my diagnosis holds some water. As I say, posters can refuse to believe there is a problem, or they can take it on the chin and do something about it, such as not tolerating a minority who tarnish this medium with crass comments about staff and volunteers who are doing the best job they can.
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jamie_duff
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:34 am
- Location: Aberdeenshire
It's maybe frustration all round Brian?
I have a suspicion that you are probably quite correct, but I for one would be interested to know how to change the situation.
It seems to be a case of the chicken or the egg.
Some people feel (perhaps rightly?) that the forum is a waste of time, and others feel it is an under used utility...
With more EC and Engineering input others may feel that the forum is a worthwhile and easily accessible resource - but by the same token perhaps the EC and Engineering folks feel that either the forum content is not worth the effort, or that they'd just suffer a hard time if they made their presence known?.
If, as Brian says, Mach2 has done lots of good work for us all then I genuinely thank him or her - but without an identity how is anyone supposed to know that? The tone was easily as negative as any of the whinges and rants that are frequently mentioned as reasons why folks don't bother with the BB.
I have a suspicion that you are probably quite correct, but I for one would be interested to know how to change the situation.
It seems to be a case of the chicken or the egg.
Some people feel (perhaps rightly?) that the forum is a waste of time, and others feel it is an under used utility...
With more EC and Engineering input others may feel that the forum is a worthwhile and easily accessible resource - but by the same token perhaps the EC and Engineering folks feel that either the forum content is not worth the effort, or that they'd just suffer a hard time if they made their presence known?.
If, as Brian says, Mach2 has done lots of good work for us all then I genuinely thank him or her - but without an identity how is anyone supposed to know that? The tone was easily as negative as any of the whinges and rants that are frequently mentioned as reasons why folks don't bother with the BB.
This BB has 173 members registered, which given the problems is actually much more than I had expected.
I have found the old board to be useful. Last year I arranged a flyout at quite short notice and we got a good turnout (including Brian) and I am already being asked to do another. This is something which just would not have happened if it had not been for the BB. Equally, several of the Regional rallies used the board to keep members up to date on what was happening up to just before the events. My trip up to Wick was enhanced by flying up in combine with another member who happened to be going the same way from a similar area. Without the BB we would have flown up separately.
If the board is to grow then more flyouts will help “form an identity”, as has happened on some of the other BB’s.
With regard to representation it is interesting to read the negative comments. The BB is very interactive, so it is hard for people to push ahead with their own agenda without either getting support, or rubbishing the criticism. As a marketing man I would hope the BB is a useful tool in forming a picture on what some members think. Before I get torn apart on the numbers, we will get more visitors in a week when we are fully up and running, then we get to the AGM. Why should a fully paid up members view be less valuable on here than anyware else? Quite a few of the members who post on the BB have a lot of knowledge and I for one benefit.
I will start a thread on the flyout section to decide on a flyout destination in April, and Mach2 you are specifically invited!
Rod1
I have found the old board to be useful. Last year I arranged a flyout at quite short notice and we got a good turnout (including Brian) and I am already being asked to do another. This is something which just would not have happened if it had not been for the BB. Equally, several of the Regional rallies used the board to keep members up to date on what was happening up to just before the events. My trip up to Wick was enhanced by flying up in combine with another member who happened to be going the same way from a similar area. Without the BB we would have flown up separately.
If the board is to grow then more flyouts will help “form an identity”, as has happened on some of the other BB’s.
With regard to representation it is interesting to read the negative comments. The BB is very interactive, so it is hard for people to push ahead with their own agenda without either getting support, or rubbishing the criticism. As a marketing man I would hope the BB is a useful tool in forming a picture on what some members think. Before I get torn apart on the numbers, we will get more visitors in a week when we are fully up and running, then we get to the AGM. Why should a fully paid up members view be less valuable on here than anyware else? Quite a few of the members who post on the BB have a lot of knowledge and I for one benefit.
I will start a thread on the flyout section to decide on a flyout destination in April, and Mach2 you are specifically invited!
Rod1
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Ernest Lear
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:32 am
I also have a poor impression of the BB. Full of moaners. How many of the BB regulars. Volunteer to give up there time to take part in doing the work needed in running there association? EC and NC members give there time free and they provide a first class service to all the members. Our LAA or any other organisation that any good, can not be managed by a BB.
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steveneale
- Posts: 294
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am
- Location: Bristol'ish
I'm sorry Brian, I don't think it is the BB that needs to sort itself out over this. Ernest, I don't see you accusing the NC of being full of moaners.
This BB can work an issue through to conclusion in less time than it takes to drive to Turweston. It may get a bit heated on the way but that's people for you. What comes out at the end is almost always positive.
Good meetings will have dissent. It is the way stuff gets worked out. I saw it all the way though my career and 9 out of 10 comments at the few NC meetings I have attended have been constructive but someone will always be unhappy. I would suggest 9 out of 10 views at EC will probably be constructive too but someone will have a moan at some point. That is human nature and sensible conclusions are forged from the ensuing discussion. Lack of dissent causes cra*p decisions (ask Mr Blair! Who?).
Yet when we do the same here we are all accused of being an unrepresentative bunch of "wingers". I met Mach2 very recently and as you say he is one of the good guys so what this shows is that it is very easy to misjudge a person on the BB. Perhaps someone in EC has been poisoning his views of the BB. Who ever that was needs to put the record straight at the next EC meeting.
I first got into computers in 1972 (big suckers then). In the intervening years I have continually been surprised by the lack of imagination displayed by otherwise intelligent and talented people about the possibilities new technology offers.
This is the future. Get used to it.
I know! Pontification!
Steve
This BB can work an issue through to conclusion in less time than it takes to drive to Turweston. It may get a bit heated on the way but that's people for you. What comes out at the end is almost always positive.
Good meetings will have dissent. It is the way stuff gets worked out. I saw it all the way though my career and 9 out of 10 comments at the few NC meetings I have attended have been constructive but someone will always be unhappy. I would suggest 9 out of 10 views at EC will probably be constructive too but someone will have a moan at some point. That is human nature and sensible conclusions are forged from the ensuing discussion. Lack of dissent causes cra*p decisions (ask Mr Blair! Who?).
Yet when we do the same here we are all accused of being an unrepresentative bunch of "wingers". I met Mach2 very recently and as you say he is one of the good guys so what this shows is that it is very easy to misjudge a person on the BB. Perhaps someone in EC has been poisoning his views of the BB. Who ever that was needs to put the record straight at the next EC meeting.
I first got into computers in 1972 (big suckers then). In the intervening years I have continually been surprised by the lack of imagination displayed by otherwise intelligent and talented people about the possibilities new technology offers.
This is the future. Get used to it.
I know! Pontification!
Steve
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jamie_duff
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:34 am
- Location: Aberdeenshire
I'll take your word for that... I'm not disputing it - I just don't know who any of these people are or what they do.Ernest Lear wrote:I also have a poor impression of the BB. Full of moaners. How many of the BB regulars. Volunteer to give up there time to take part in doing the work needed in running there association? EC and NC members give there time free and they provide a first class service to all the members. Our LAA or any other organisation that any good, can not be managed by a BB.
I know Brian Hope writes the magazine, and I know John Brady has done some great work but only because of John's threads on the BB telling everyone what he's doing.
As for the rest - apparently they do great work in their free time which is excellent - but I don't know who to thank or for what and can't thank them anyway because I have no contact with them and wouldn't know them from Adam if I bumped into one at a Fly In.
I'm sure most of them are in telephone or personal contact with each other and see the BB as pointless and that's great. What about those of us sat in the middle of nowhere paying our fifty quid a year for the right to build an aeroplane though?
I could almost accuse the PFA/LAA of being cliquey and unwelcoming even to it's own newer members if I was that sort of person - but I'm not and I don't believe that to be the case.
Lastly - nobody is suggesting that the LAA be "managed" by a forum - but it's a good way to make contacts with people whom we'd never meet otherwise....
To put this plainly - the only reason I know who Pete Diffey and Phil Brookman (fellow Rand KR2 owners) are is because of this forum.
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Bill McCarthy
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:06 pm
- Location: Caithness
Jamie,
Could I point you in the direction of the LA magazine again. There is a section alongside the Strut listing of many type enthusiast co-ordinators. Yours, as you have discovered, is Phil Brookman, not only a builder, but it seems he runs the KR2 group newsletter.
There has been many a gripe about inspector availability in Wales. If the inspector can't come to you, whats wrong with taking your project or aircraft to his vicinity.
Forgive the slant on Kennedy's inaugural speech but many members should ...."Ask not what your Association can do for you - ask what you can do for your Association."
Could I point you in the direction of the LA magazine again. There is a section alongside the Strut listing of many type enthusiast co-ordinators. Yours, as you have discovered, is Phil Brookman, not only a builder, but it seems he runs the KR2 group newsletter.
There has been many a gripe about inspector availability in Wales. If the inspector can't come to you, whats wrong with taking your project or aircraft to his vicinity.
Forgive the slant on Kennedy's inaugural speech but many members should ...."Ask not what your Association can do for you - ask what you can do for your Association."
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jamie_duff
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:34 am
- Location: Aberdeenshire
What's wrong with doing the social thing faster and for free on the forum? 
I have email contact with a few KR2 owners for reference, including Phil, but I am not aware of any KR2 Newsletter. Maybe Pete knows differently?
Colin Hales has certainly never mentioned it.
That's a side issue though - and whilst nobody wishes to take anything away from the Magazine - a magazine is one-way communication and a forum isn't.
I read about take-off tax proposals on here before I got my magazine. That's great - that's progress! It's also bad news like Mode S.
The magazine contained another brief noting that the Vans RV-6/7 series had received the green light finally for aerobatics. That's good news. Did anyone bother to post that up on the forum? Nope.
The reason why so much of the forum content is negative is because none of the EC who are the first to find everything out post any of the good news on here for everyone to chat about. The forum is left for isolated souls with questions about the bad news to post them up and inevitably the tone of the discussion is unpleasant.
If an EC member thinks that the content is claptrap then who's fault is that? If one knows differently and held a position of responsibility within the association then why not set the record straight? I don't mean to target Mach2 but his post serves as a clear example.
I have moderated several forums over the years, and remain a prolific member of several other clubs (dare I say more forward thinking clubs?) who use their forums as highly effective tools to bring together their memberships for regular meetings in person, and allow frequent and up to date communication in the mean time.
I have email contact with a few KR2 owners for reference, including Phil, but I am not aware of any KR2 Newsletter. Maybe Pete knows differently?
Colin Hales has certainly never mentioned it.
That's a side issue though - and whilst nobody wishes to take anything away from the Magazine - a magazine is one-way communication and a forum isn't.
I read about take-off tax proposals on here before I got my magazine. That's great - that's progress! It's also bad news like Mode S.
The magazine contained another brief noting that the Vans RV-6/7 series had received the green light finally for aerobatics. That's good news. Did anyone bother to post that up on the forum? Nope.
The reason why so much of the forum content is negative is because none of the EC who are the first to find everything out post any of the good news on here for everyone to chat about. The forum is left for isolated souls with questions about the bad news to post them up and inevitably the tone of the discussion is unpleasant.
If an EC member thinks that the content is claptrap then who's fault is that? If one knows differently and held a position of responsibility within the association then why not set the record straight? I don't mean to target Mach2 but his post serves as a clear example.
I have moderated several forums over the years, and remain a prolific member of several other clubs (dare I say more forward thinking clubs?) who use their forums as highly effective tools to bring together their memberships for regular meetings in person, and allow frequent and up to date communication in the mean time.
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John Brady
- Posts: 284
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:39 pm
Evening All,
just back from a day of LAA business and thought I would call in to see how things were going.
Jamie, I subscribe to a couple of other forums, one for the aeroplane I own and one for the aeroplane I am building. They are both brilliant. I have got to know really interesting people and if I have a problem, I can get a range of solutions from around the world and all in an hour or two. And I can offer my own experience and help. It is a real (virtual) community. When I was in NZ last year a builder I had met on the BB invited me to his strip and a mate offered a trip followed by someone else offering a trip and I had a total aviation week-end. I was quite humbled by their hospitality. All down to the BB.
Those BBs have a particular type focus which is perhaps why they are different to the way this one is some of the time. Anyway I quite enjoyed my rant
Bye
just back from a day of LAA business and thought I would call in to see how things were going.
Jamie, I subscribe to a couple of other forums, one for the aeroplane I own and one for the aeroplane I am building. They are both brilliant. I have got to know really interesting people and if I have a problem, I can get a range of solutions from around the world and all in an hour or two. And I can offer my own experience and help. It is a real (virtual) community. When I was in NZ last year a builder I had met on the BB invited me to his strip and a mate offered a trip followed by someone else offering a trip and I had a total aviation week-end. I was quite humbled by their hospitality. All down to the BB.
Those BBs have a particular type focus which is perhaps why they are different to the way this one is some of the time. Anyway I quite enjoyed my rant
Bye
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Bill McCarthy
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:06 pm
- Location: Caithness
Welshman,
Well it's been done before - project or parts of it taken to the inspector, I mean. Why can't you go and pick up your inspector then and put him up for the night somewhere. It's not his fault or the Association's that you have chosen to live where you live. The days of getting something for nothing are well and truly over.
Well it's been done before - project or parts of it taken to the inspector, I mean. Why can't you go and pick up your inspector then and put him up for the night somewhere. It's not his fault or the Association's that you have chosen to live where you live. The days of getting something for nothing are well and truly over.
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Brian Hope
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:28 pm
- Location: Sheerness Kent
"Brian Hope tries to keep the info moving but if his hands are tied by others then what chance is there"
Why on earth do you think there is such a veil of secrecy over what the EC does - THERE IS NOT. I have tried to give very thorough reports in the magazine of what is being discussed at EC and NC meetings and there is rarely anything that for commercial or political reasons is kept under wraps. There is no them and us, and nobody's hands are tied. There is transparency and honesty.
Like Mach 2 I belong to a type club forum which offers excellent advice on maintenance, building, operating etc and never gets into politics or bitching, other type forums do, I guess it's down to how they are moderated. Moderate anything on here and there are howls of censorship.
I do think the board can be a very positive and useful tool, but as I said before, you have to convince people of that by presenting a responsible and interesting face.
Why on earth do you think there is such a veil of secrecy over what the EC does - THERE IS NOT. I have tried to give very thorough reports in the magazine of what is being discussed at EC and NC meetings and there is rarely anything that for commercial or political reasons is kept under wraps. There is no them and us, and nobody's hands are tied. There is transparency and honesty.
Like Mach 2 I belong to a type club forum which offers excellent advice on maintenance, building, operating etc and never gets into politics or bitching, other type forums do, I guess it's down to how they are moderated. Moderate anything on here and there are howls of censorship.
I do think the board can be a very positive and useful tool, but as I said before, you have to convince people of that by presenting a responsible and interesting face.
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Captain Pulsar
- Posts: 95
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:20 pm
Astonishing, a thread moaning about the moaning that goes on! 
I think the BB is great for so many things, especially for get togethers when the skies are blue and the grass firm and freshly mown. Also for folk to get in touch with local activities and discuss technical issues.
It is, I fear, part of human nature that disagreements will occur in any forum. Perhaps it is a suitable venue for anxieties to be aired, however from my perpective posters should at all times avoid the confrontational tone sometimes adopted, and bear in mind we are all in this because we like aeroplanes. Flyers are usually pretty individual people, so there is no way they are all going to agree on anything, and a consensus may not be practical. Lets accept this.
This BB could and should be the premier venue for our type of flying, let's promote it in that vein.
Lastly, hats off to Brian. He produces a wonderful magazine for us, and still routinely sticks his head above the parapet for a good kicking, and always comes back for more!
Now, about this bad weather. Its a disgrace.....................Blah......
I think the BB is great for so many things, especially for get togethers when the skies are blue and the grass firm and freshly mown. Also for folk to get in touch with local activities and discuss technical issues.
It is, I fear, part of human nature that disagreements will occur in any forum. Perhaps it is a suitable venue for anxieties to be aired, however from my perpective posters should at all times avoid the confrontational tone sometimes adopted, and bear in mind we are all in this because we like aeroplanes. Flyers are usually pretty individual people, so there is no way they are all going to agree on anything, and a consensus may not be practical. Lets accept this.
This BB could and should be the premier venue for our type of flying, let's promote it in that vein.
Lastly, hats off to Brian. He produces a wonderful magazine for us, and still routinely sticks his head above the parapet for a good kicking, and always comes back for more!
Now, about this bad weather. Its a disgrace.....................Blah......