Insurance recommendations?

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cluttonfred
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Insurance recommendations?

Post by cluttonfred » Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:20 pm

I am embarking on my first airplane purchase, a single-seat amateur-built on an LAA Permit to Flgy, and am wondering about insurance requirements and providers. What do I need to have legally in terms of coverage? Are there any "official LAA" insurance providers or any that have a good track record with LAA members? Cheers, Matthew
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johnmichie
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Re: Insurance recommendations?

Post by johnmichie » Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:56 pm

Hi Matthew

third party insurance is mandatory, hull insurance is optional and up to you to decide whether to risk it.
Many owners are changing to Visicover, their quotes are usually much cheaper. They are web based and you can quickly and easily tailor the cover to your requirements. I use them, they are worth a look.

http://www.visicover.com

John
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Chris Martyr
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Re: Insurance recommendations?

Post by Chris Martyr » Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:44 am

Visicover seems to be the name on everyone's lips these days, although I don't use them myself .

I can thoroughly recommend Traffords though, having used them for several years now. Excellent service and realistic premiums. :D
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cluttonfred
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Re: Insurance recommendations?

Post by cluttonfred » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:04 pm

Thanks, Chris, I'll check out Traffords.
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2greens1red
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Re: Insurance recommendations?

Post by 2greens1red » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:49 pm

There are several reasons why Visicover is worth a look:

1) All negotiations online, so you can tweak various permutations of cover until you get the one you (and maybe your co-owners) need, without endless correspondence to your broker. When you do need to talk to them, they're extremely helpful.

2) Increase of 3rd Party Liability (inc. Pax insurance) from £2 Million - £5M was quite modest. £2 Million these days wouldn't go far on the legal fees alone, and it's relaxing to have your pax covered - no nonsense with having them to sign no-liability chits. See LAA mag article couple of years ago: http://goo.gl/6CSpSh

3) Betterment can be included, which means no deduction for age of kit (prop strike for instance).

4) No charge for spreading the annual premium monthly.

Maybe check your current policy covers airside liability (your car, for instance, usually isn't insured airside on an auto policy); whether your no-claims discount is protected in case of a claim; whether vandalism is specifically included.

We ended up paying a bit more than our last premium, but feel the increased cover was worth it.
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Chris Thompson
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Re: Insurance recommendations?

Post by Chris Thompson » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:26 pm

Can thoroughly recommend Visicover. They use all the same loss adjusters etc. and the premiums are much cheaper than Traffords / Haywards - and YES, they do pay out promptly if there is a claim!
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ian herdis
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Re: Insurance recommendations?

Post by ian herdis » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:33 pm

Shop around and check the policy details carefully so you can compare like for like.

I am with Traffords, I have had quotes from Visicover twice but each time Traffords was cheaper.

Good luck with your new aircraft.

Ian.
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fuzzflyer
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Re: Insurance recommendations?

Post by fuzzflyer » Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:06 pm

I was happy with Traffords! had my last plane with them but no claims so no advice on that.
But I asked for a quote on my new Aircraft and they were more than double of Visicover. So I have switched and found the customer service excellent so far. and like us all hope I never have to use them.

The online quote system is almost perfect. So Good Luck
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G.Dawes
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Re: Insurance recommendations?

Post by G.Dawes » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:18 pm

With the bad weather and various other reasons I find that it cost £75 per hour to insure a Jodel, that is horrendous and when I went to visicover the premium was half that. Trouble is the fixed cost are overtaking the usage making it not worth doing anymore. The fixed costs are totally overwhelming and I find it difficult to justify flying at all now. They take so much there is little to actually put fuel in with now to go flying.
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Brian Hope
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Re: Insurance recommendations?

Post by Brian Hope » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:11 am

The cost of operating a permit aircraft has probably come down a little recently. Insurance is certainly cheaper now than it has been in the recent past - it's about the same as I was paying 20 years ago!
Fuel costs have dropped too - remember when avgas was £2 a litre and mogas £1.35? Permit fees and inspections are pretty much of little relevance in the grand scheme of things because they form a very small part of ownership - a couple of tankfulls of fuel. Hangarage can be a killer, but many of us are on private strips where costs have done little more than keep up with inflation.
So, if your insurance is costing you £75 an hour Graham, it is because you aren't flying enough, not because the premium is exorbitantly high. I used to fly over 100 hours a year, year in year out, so my hourly flying cost was quite low. I don't any more, but that is down to personal choice. The basic maths of owning anything - plane, boat, caravan or car, is the more use you get out of it the more cost effective it is over hiring. It was always reckoned that 50 hours was the break point for owning an aeroplane, although owning your own isn't purely down to it being more cost effective, pleasure of ownership and convenience come into it and may well be more important to many of us.
In the nicest possible way Graham, you need to get out more! Why not set yourself a goal or two for the coming season. Go for an LAA Wings badge perhaps. Maybe visit places you have never been before, do Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland on a circuitous trip over three or four days for instance. There are plenty of challenges that can spice up help your flying.
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Flying John
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Re: Insurance recommendations?

Post by Flying John » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:27 pm

Having just been round this loop for the umpteenth time with Visicover, Traffords and others quoting I have remained with Traffords. Some of the reasons are that:

Only Traffords have the unique EC785/2004 rate fluctuation guarantee that you will always have at least the legal minimum liability cover whilst flying (for example if a currency crashes as the law is not written in pounds sterling).

Traffords' policy is underwritten by Lloyd's, if the Lloyd's syndicate run out of money and can't pay your claim then "Lloyds" as a whole have funds to pay claims ..... whereas with non Lloyd's insurers if they go "bust" then that's it.

Unlike with car and house insurance, the Financial Services Compensation Scheme doesn't apply to aircraft insurance (irrespective to what anyone intimates in their policy wording) and if you check the Scheme’s website http://www.fscs.org.uk/industry/sub-sch ... s-process/ just above the heading “Payment Process” it confirms aviation is not covered.

So be careful if you shop around and make sure you don't get stuck with a clause that says if you ding your prop and its 5 yrs old you may only get a fraction of the replacement cost, or if you have 1500hrs on your engine and you have an incident can you afford to pay 3/4 of the cost of repairs yourself.

Do you get crown indemnity as a matter of course, are you covered airside with your car. Lots of little details that you may expect, but not get.

Oh and then Trafford's matched the other prices too and I maintained the cover level I expected. Nice to have loyalty rewarded sometimes.

John
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2greens1red
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Re: Insurance recommendations?

Post by 2greens1red » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:22 pm

Only Traffords have the unique EC785/2004 rate fluctuation guarantee that you will always have at least the legal minimum liability cover whilst flying (for example if a currency crashes as the law is not written in pounds sterling).

I'm struggling with this one, John:

a) I'd strongly recommend not settling for legal min. liability cover, which would barely cover legal costs (see above).

b) The 'fluctuation guarantee' is an eccentric concept. Sterling is unlikely to 'crash', but, if it does, is cover maintained by some gold standard? If another currency crashes, then you're quids in, so to speak.

Addenda
The agreed standard the UK CAA uses is the SDR, and currently is 1.5M SDR (approx. £1.45M) for aircraft under 1,000kgs MTOM (see: http://goo.gl/tBLuC7) which I suggest is too low.
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Brian Hope
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Re: Insurance recommendations?

Post by Brian Hope » Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:25 pm

Bob Bevan from Visicover asked that he be able to comment on this thread.

“I would just like to correct the comment in a previous post which suggests that the EC785/2004 rate fluctuation guarantee is unique to Traffords, as Visicover provides the same guarantee in their insurance certificate.
As background, the minimum liability limits are determined by the aircraft’s MTOW, seats and use. They are set at the European level using Special Drawing Rights (SDRs) which are then converted to Sterling, so the minimum requirements can fluctuate daily. Thus if someone arranges £1 million cover which, at the date cover commences, just meets the minimum requirement, they could find themselves with less than the minimum if the value of Sterling decreases. The effect of the guarantee is to say that if this happens, the insurer will still provide the minimum legally required cover.
We do not make a big deal about provision of this guarantee as it is as relatively small benefit. We calculate the minimum requirement daily, and build in a buffer so that there would need to be a pretty large currency swing for the guarantee to come in to play.
I would however echo the comments of 2Greens1Red in the subsequent post regarding the selection of the level of liability cover. The minimum simply ensures owners meet the legal requirement to operate the aircraft, it does not mean that have the right level of cover for their needs. If an accident results in damages that are greater than the cover held, the owner will be liable to pay the difference. Remember, the hull cover tends to be the most expensive component of your insurance, so a large increase in your liability cover will generally have a relatively small impact on the overall premium.
I could also debate some of the other post points, such as the benefits of underwriting via one of the world’s largest aviation insurers v a Lloyds syndicate. However I am conscious that insurance is a deeply dull subject so if anyone would like more info on these matters, please feel free to contact me.
Bob Bevan.
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Flying John
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Re: Insurance recommendations?

Post by Flying John » Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:59 pm

Well I couldn't see it in Visicover policy wording. But I guess we all make our own decisions and I am satisfied with what I have.

Just something to mullover for some light reading:
https://www.fca.org.uk/static/fca/docum ... obrien.pdf

And whatever happened to "On Risk" insurers ?
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John Dean
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Re: Insurance recommendations?

Post by John Dean » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:32 pm

Flying John wrote:And whatever happened to "On Risk" insurers ?
They moved from what was reputed to be a poorly regulated environment in Northern Cyprus to another one in the Caribbean and have now been wound up.

This makes interesting reading.

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