Rotax Article, LA mag, Oct '15

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Chris Martyr
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Rotax Article, LA mag, Oct '15

Post by Chris Martyr » Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:28 am

Firstly, well done Brian and team for yet another good 'un ! The best aviation mag by a country mile in my books.
I think however, that the readership may just require some sort of clarification regarding the Rotax article on P.42/43. Particularly, the last three paragraphs of P.43.
Its author, Jonathan Porter says that in effect, anyone who purchases a new Rotax for their project and wishes to maintain it themselves will forego their warranty unless they complete a Rotax course at a cost of £349.00.
Either something has been left out of this article, or Mr Porter & Co are not in behold of the full facts regarding the LAA's role as delegated by the UK CAA as the organisation approved to oversee the maintenance and operation of aircraft on a PtF in this country.
Further misgivings are supported by Mr Porter's statement ; " I have been to many fly-ins and airfields this year and notice many folk are not aware of the requirements for service. Not just in the oil and spark plug changes, but also in the general inspections and what to look for".
Well, so what ! That is why the LAA has its network of Inspectors isn't it ? Or is Mr Porter saying that there is a shortfall in competence in LAA's Inspectorate.

Surely if an Inspector, who has many years of experience and knowledge with Rotax engines and has the requisite approval from the LAA to carry out the required sign-offs, then that's it isn't it.End of !
Of course it is an added bonus if an Inspector has completed a Rotax course , but is this now going to be a requirement ? And for individual owners too ??? [Ker-ching]
I hope it's not me being suspicious , but do I detect a "system within a system" being created here ? and it won't be the first time that Rotax and their concessionaires have been mentioned concerning the undermining of the LAA and the very robust and professionally run regime that is currently in place.
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Brian Hope
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Re: Rotax Article, LA mag, Oct '15

Post by Brian Hope » Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:39 pm

Hi Chris, what you read in the article is what Jonathan Porter from CFS, the UK agent for Rotax, intended. From a manufacturer's point of view, if they are providing a guarantee then they can dictate how the product is serviced during the guarantee period in order that they can be assured that it is being done as intended. It is normal practice with a car for example, where you'd almost certainly have to have it serviced by a main agent for the duration of the guarantee period. I would not argue that that was an unreasonable attitude. To be honest I don't know whether this arrangement was what happened when Skydrive was the agent, I suspect they too wanted assurance that the engine was serviced in accordance with Rotax guidelines in one way or another. Post guarantee you can use who you like, or do it yourself, as long as your inspector is satisfied the work is satisfactory.
It remains to be seen whether CFS' new 'main dealer' type arrangements find favour with Rotax users. There are some excellent maintenance and repair guys out there who will never fit into this new system but they have very good reputations and I would not like to see them sidelined or disadvantaged because their particular business model does not fit with CFS', or they happen to be in an area where there is already a CFS 'main agent'. Time will tell.
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Ian Melville
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Re: Rotax Article, LA mag, Oct '15

Post by Ian Melville » Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:51 pm

I thought the cartel where car main dealers were the only ones that could service a vehicle without invalidating a warranty, was out-lawed years ago?
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ian herdis
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Re: Rotax Article, LA mag, Oct '15

Post by ian herdis » Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:44 pm

It was. You have to stick to the service schedule and best to use the manufacturers filters etc. but you are not forced to use the original manufacturer.
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Re: Rotax Article, LA mag, Oct '15

Post by AlanR » Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:24 am

The CFS general Modus Operandi is totally out of synch with the way LAA and BMAA aircraft operate in the UK. I forsee the growth of non-manufacturer parts will become the norm in the UK for Rotax parts, similar to how it has grown in the rest of Europe.

Have you ever tried just buying parts from CFS? Difficult or what!..They told me I had to register with them,Age,Date,Inside leg etc. Had I been on an IRMT training course? etc. What qualifications did I hold to service a Rotax engine? Then I needed to register my engine with them and then go through a paper chase of them sending quote and acceptance just to buy a £5.50 part!
What is wrong with :-I want part, they have part, I give credit card they send part?
Alan Radford
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Chris Martyr
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Re: Rotax Article, LA mag, Oct '15

Post by Chris Martyr » Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:57 am

Interesting to see other guys re-actions over this. I don't exactly detect many with a warm, fuzzy feeling inside with regard to this topic and I am still rather mystified that an individual buyer , who is not an LAA Inspector, has to undergo a course at CFS to preserve his warranty if he purchases a new engine from them.
What would CFS's view be then if a buyer purchased a 9 series engine from them, did their course, and then had his engine installation signed off by an LAA Approved Inspector, who had extensive Rotax experience but had "only done" an LAA Rotax course ?
This is why, in my initial posting, I wondered if there was anything that had been left out of this article.
I'm afraid that I still can't help thinking that there is a thinly disguised contempt here, not just for the customer, but also for the LAA , who let's not forget are on the verge of acquiring BCAR A8-26 Approval.

To return to the car dealer warranty analogy, If you bought a new car and the dealer insisted that you gave them £349.00 to do a training course before you lift the bonnet to check the oil, coolant, fluids,,,etc. Then would you do business with them ?
A certain airline, that I'm not totally unfamiliar with uses this standard cabin announcement : "We always remember you have a choice and thank you for choosing us".

Clearly a business ethic that the Rotax Mafia don't quite go along with !
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Re: Rotax Article, LA mag, Oct '15

Post by Conrad » Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:04 pm

I have tried to stay quiet on many issues surrounding this and many similar topics of late, but I am very concerned too.

I am aware of a customer who ended up being supplied a replacement engine after he experienced an unusual failure. The engine was out of warranty but it was ascertained that the failure could not have been caused by the owner or any engineer who had only carried out routine maintenance.

The aircraft owner wanted his choice of engineer to install the new engine, but despite his choice of engineer being an LAA inspector & a Rotax iRMT, CFS insisted their preferred engineer had to install the engine. The customer ended up paying a fairly substantial bill for the work.
The whole ethos of the LAA and BMAA feels like it is being undermined. I hope at some point the situation can be rectified so we can get back to the type of freedom the LAA & BMAA have provided for us. This type of corporate contempt needs halting before it gets out of hand.

Other Rotax distributors and parts suppliers seem to have a different approach.

The Rotax 912 series have proven to be really good engines and are fitted in to a lot of LAA aircraft so we need to protect our rights.
Conrad Beale 023661
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Chris Martyr
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Re: Rotax Article, LA mag, Oct '15

Post by Chris Martyr » Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:54 am

Referring to the magazine space in LA mag. Will Rotax Technical Corner be a regular feature from now on ?
It would certainly be a good idea to do so when one takes into account how many Rotax engined aircraft there are in the UK . Especially with Jonathan Porters implication that many Rotax owners don't really know what they're looking at !
And if is to continue, will it be with contributions from others within our organisation who have a massive amount of knowledge and experience to share regarding this actually quite interesting topic.

Mr Porter is absolutely spot-on though in his observation that, "training is key", it is also available via LAA's ET programme, run by very highly regarded and capable people and at nearly a third of the cost of CFS's product , which must come with a helluva 'Goody Bag'.
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Re: Rotax Article, LA mag, Oct '15

Post by woodysr2 » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:54 pm

There are some serious problems lurking with mister Porter and crew, they think they can treat the laa and bmaa machines with total disdane as has been shown with both the carb float and carb rubber issues as has been seen in the last couple of months.Basically we are either going to jump through their hoops or we are going to pay for it.never mind though you could always get his wife to do the work for you as she has taken the three day course.The need to use manufacturer dealers to carry out servicing work was lost years ago as has already been pointed out even more importantly main dealers cannot even stipulate using DEALER PARTS!!!!
The dealers don't make the plugs (NGK) Filters (k+n and Mahle) oil Shell but Johnathon is going to try and tell me some muppet who has sat a three day course is going to service my engine when I have over 40 years in the garage indusry I don't think so and his patronising attitude will need some attention also as was evident from his replies to the carb rubber thread on the other forum.
I see trouble ahead.
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Re: Rotax Article, LA mag, Oct '15

Post by mcfadyeanda » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:29 pm

What makes this issue more disturbing is Rotax's 'one country, one agent' anti competitive policy. At least in relation to new engine supply, which could easily be used also to control genuine spares supply.
There seem to be a blossoming grey-spares market however (including serviceable used parts)!

I'm hoping there will be some balancing response to this issue (principle and attitude) in the letters page of the next issue of Light Aviation, but I won't have written it; still too furious!

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Re: Rotax Article, LA mag, Oct '15

Post by Brian Hope » Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:30 pm

Hi all, sorry not to have been back with a response for a while. Things have been a bit busy.
To answer Chris Martyr's question about the continuation of a Rotax technical column in the magazine, and contributions from other Rotax specialists, the answer is an optimistic yes on both counts. My intention is for a semi-regular feature - if good material is forthcoming then it will be published.
Clearly as editor of the magazine, I have to take an even handed view in these issues, regardless of what I might personally believe. I have already spoken to one well respected Rotax engineer outside of the new CFS system and offered him the opportunity to present useful two and four-stroke operation and maintenance material to our members. A similar discussion has obviously taken place with CFS. My aim is to ensure we publish worthwhile articles to help owners get safe, cost effective service from their engines, nobody will have a monopoly on providing that material.
The November mag is already dropping onto members' doormats, and I'm afraid Duncan is going to be disappointed because there are no letters about the article from CFS; simple fact is I did not receive any, not a single one. I have to say I am a little surprised.
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Chris Martyr
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Re: Rotax Article, LA mag, Oct '15

Post by Chris Martyr » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:38 am

Thanks for the response Brian, I am sure that most will understand that you have to tread a bit of a delicate path sometimes as magazine Editor in placating both the readership and the contributors, as well as having to come on here and give feedback.
I am sure that all who have been following this little debate will be pleased to see that it won't just be a bandstand for one persons trumpet solo.
If I may revert to the training situation again . It has been drawn to my attention that CFS's "Instant Rotax Expert" courses appear to only have a two year period of validity attached to them.
So, if you order your new 9-Series from them, book yourself a course in order to protect your warranty and [as is quite normal] your build time takes longer than expected, you could quite easily be parting with yet another £349.00 to repeat exactly the same course before you become airborne.

As Brian quite rightly said earlier, "time will tell".
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Re: Rotax Article, LA mag, Oct '15

Post by Arjxh56 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:30 pm

Just seen this and thought it may be of interest to some of you?

......The next East Midlands LAA Strut meeting will be held on the 9th November 2015 at The Plough Inn, Normanton-on-Soar, LE12 5HB at 7:30pm for 8:00pm.

We have Jonathan Porter, the new agent/service provider for Rotax engines so very relevant if you are running one of these engines.

Tony Razzell

East Midlands LAA Strut Membership Coordinator
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Re: Rotax Article, LA mag, Oct '15

Post by mikehallam » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:23 pm

The forums, never the less, unfortunately indicate folk's poor experience buying expensive Rotax parts from the new UK Agents, not helped what they wrote in the LAA magazine about carb rubber failures & criticising our existing network of independent Rotax engineers.
Whilst their business plan may suit C of A type planes, it is contrary to & opposes our tried & trusted BMAA & LAA Permit engineering oversight procedures.

Conair the previous well known long term Agent for both two & four stroke Rotax Engines continue to support us - now offering attractively low prices. To remain viable to serve our needs it's important we support them too.

e.g. Mid this week I needed a replacement 912 rectifier. A quick 'phone call to Conair & a new Ducati unit arrived this morning at a sensible cost. It was accompanied by a surprisingly attractive price sheet for Bing and suitable Rotax spares.

As a result I've now placed a follow up order for a 912 engine water hose kit and a set of those elusive exhaust mounts to have ready for my Permit work.

Conair's availability & good service is worth highlighting,

mike hallam

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John Clarke
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Re: Rotax Article, LA mag, Oct '15

Post by John Clarke » Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:24 am

AlanR wrote:The CFS general Modus Operandi is totally out of synch with the way LAA and BMAA aircraft operate in the UK. I forsee the growth of non-manufacturer parts will become the norm in the UK for Rotax parts, similar to how it has grown in the rest of Europe.

Have you ever tried just buying parts from CFS? Difficult or what!..They told me I had to register with them,Age,Date,Inside leg etc. Had I been on an IRMT training course? etc. What qualifications did I hold to service a Rotax engine? Then I needed to register my engine with them and then go through a paper chase of them sending quote and acceptance just to buy a £5.50 part!
What is wrong with :-I want part, they have part, I give credit card they send part?
You're dead right there! CFS were a complete fiasco when I used them a few months ago. I hope things have improved since then. Life was so simple with Skydrive. Ridiculous prices for some items but at least you'd get the goods the next day.

There is a thread on the Flyer forum about CFS:- http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php ... ilit=rotax (I'm jaycee58 in that thread if you'd like to read about my experience of CFS).
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