Annual Flight Test for Permit ??

[mikehallam]

This CAA notice turned up today.


Categories: Air displays and events, flight training, GA, maintenance engineers.
Safety notice - requirements for check flights
A new safety notice details our policy regarding the requirements for check flights for UK registered aircraft.

[The linked pdf explains, using the ambiguous word 'permit' but lower case - so is that LAA Permit too or ??]

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplic ... il&id=7491

It supersedes the requirements and guidance (where it differs) currently provided in BCAR Section A (CAP 553) and other CAA publications on this subject.

SW2016/129

mike hallam

[Brian Hope]

Hi Mike, I think you'll find section 3.1 is the relevant one re LAA Permit to Fly aircraft:

3:1 The responsibility of deciding when a check flight is required as part of the continuing airworthiness oversight of the aircraft, lies with the aircraft pilot-owner, maintainer or continuing airworthiness management organisation (as applicable).

LAA manages the continuing airworthiness so unless there is a change in policy, check flights remain for each and every permit validation renewal.
Personally I don't see that as onerous, is it not reassuring to know that the aircraft is performing up to its usual standard, or a timely heads up that there is impending trouble if it isn't.

The VNE dive I hear some say ...well that's another issue, particularly in old, relatively slow aeroplanes. It represents almost a 40% increase in speed over what you do in normal operation in something like a two seat Jodel 95kt cruise, 138kt VNE)and demands some effort to achieve. Personally I don't see how it adds safety in such a case, because in thirty years I never came even remotely close to VNE other than during the test flight. I doubt I topped 110kt.
I accept that slippery and aerobatic types are very different and VNE can probably be reached much more easily should 'normal' operation go a bit pear-shaped.

[mikehallam]

Thanks Brian,

FWIW I take it seriously & look forwards to doing the Annual air test.
VNE on the Rans is a miserly 120 mph, hardly enough to make anyone shun it. After all it's best for one to know[b] before[/b] taking up pax etc. that the controls don't tighten up or perhaps the a/c shows unusual tendencies.

Here's another on Driving Licence Medical starting in a few weeks (?)
You'll have it seen on the Jodel Forum - which surprisingly is the only source I've come across !

mike hallam.

Anyway here is the Pukah gen I have emboldened the text:-
2016 No. 765 CIVIL AVIATION
The Air Navigation Order 2016 Made - - - - 13th July 2016
Laid before Parliament 20th July 2016
Coming into force - - 25th August 2016
Regards, J***

[Brian Hope]

Yes I saw that too Mike. Only last week though, the CAA issued a press release specifically about the driver licence 'medical' and said it would come into force in 'late summer', if August 25 was known to be the actual date then I'd have thought they'd have said that.
We await with bated breath.
Rgds, Brian

[SteveSlater]

The link to the CAA Medicals announcement was on the LAA website's 'news' pages from last week. It was only moved down to 'earlier news' this week as other stories came in.

http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co. ... s2016.html

We also made a comment at the time of the previous CAA announcement in May....

http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co. ... icals.html

I understand that the intent for the CAA is to announce the medical self-declaration at some stage in the coming month as part of the ANO review. The reason for the lack of a specific date is that they don't yet know when their computer services will be ready to offer the requisite on-line decaration form.

[mikehallam]

Thanks Steve,

I have to confess that though I read this forum almost daily for "news" I infrequently study the main LAA page for news, unless I'm looking for specifics.
As I might not be the only 'slacker' who is not daily checking for notices, could there be a 'news added' section placed on this forum please too, if it's not too much to burden you guys with ?

Regards,

mike hallam.

[Ian Hoolahan]

The VNE dive I hear some say ...well that's another issue, particularly in old, relatively slow aeroplanes. It represents almost a 40% increase in speed over what you do in normal operation in something like a two seat Jodel 95kt cruise, 138kt VNE)and demands some effort to achieve. Personally I don't see how it adds safety in such a case, because in thirty years I never came even remotely close to VNE other than during the test flight. I doubt I topped 110kt.

I would have thought there is an argument to allow you to set your own VNE as long as it is lower than the book one and a set percent above the normal full throttle speed, so, say full throttle is 100 and book VNE is 138 you shuld be able to do the VNE Dive to anything between (say) 120 and 138, the speed you reach then goes on the Permit as the limit.

[Alan Kilbride]

Sorry Ian, I don't see how a pilot setting the new permit VNE is of any use at all. Why do it at all in that case?
A VNE is set for an aircraft by engineers and designers and an arbitrary VNE set by a pilot is just therefore a number and having it put on the permit as a new limitation won't help a new purchaser who thinks the VNE is 20 kts faster, but because someone wasn't confident enough in his own Aircraft or skills as a pilot set a new limit is just not on.
As for the argument to get rid of flight tests for a permit, how do we test the Max temps in a 1000ft climb at full throttle? How do we check the climb rate as a bell weather of engine performance from the previous year? How do we check for control surface stability at high speeds?(VNE).
A comparison from the previous year is a good way to check on engine wear and condition and another pilot air testing your pride and joy may find anomalies that you have been unaware of as it has been a gradual deterioration over the last year.
I vote to keep the flight test.
As an aside I also vote to keep the rule that any owner or part owner of an LAA permit to fly must be a member of the LAA and if they don't like it, then leave and try to fly a C of A Aircraft cheaper.


Alan
G-BJOT

[Ian Hoolahan]

Sorry Ian, I don't see how a pilot setting the new permit VNE is of any use at all. Why do it at all in that case?
A VNE is set for an aircraft by engineers and designers and an arbitrary VNE set by a pilot is just therefore a number and having it put on the permit as a new limitation won't help a new purchaser

I am not suggesting a Vne that would be very restrictive, as you say, these are set by the designer and engineer and can be well above anything you will realistically need. If you are flying an old aircraft and really not happy to test to the Vne that should be up to you as owner but the Vne should not be approved to more than you test for and so a limitation you stick to, and of course selling it on is your problem. It should also be possible to then retest to the origional Vne, but only after a further check and approval by an engineer.

[mike newall]

Older types have always had the caveat that a Vne dive may be considered inappropriate and pilots may use best judgement.

I used to flight test a Tiger Moth and that never went to Vne !

Our RV goes to Vne on almost every flight

[ChampChump]

Well, it's always easier to hoover out the front than the back...