Compass erroprs

[jangiolini]

Thanks Mike.
I was falling for the bait!!
Cest La Vie!!

[PaulSS]

I am neither a troll, nor deliberately trying to wind anyone up and where I live at the moment the weather is beautiful for flying, so not the result of a bored mind.

If you, Mike, think it is nonsense to remove the instrument then that's fine but I disagree it is a nonsense to discuss the subject. Yes, it may just be an aesthetic thing but even that is still a valid argument for what is, in my opinion, an option to delete a redundant instrument. Some people would rather have the 2.25" hole taken up by an instrument that more is useful to them than something that gets installed, swung to the Nth degree and then ignored for the rest of its life. I disagree that it is an 'essential backup' if, as I have postulated, other forms of backup are carried. The other authorities I have mentioned also believe it is not essential and I think it is fair to say that both the FAA & CASA are not 'two-bit' organisations who would not have considered the essential nature of a wet compass IF it were the case.

For John, I'm sorry that I cause your head to shake Maybe my 'obvious experience' (something I am NOT claiming, by the way) means that I can see reason and more options in not having to have the wet compass, whereas 'lesser' experience just go along with what they're told by others who might have no interest in looking forward, only 'what it was like in my day'. I'm not 'ridiculing' the wet compass but suggesting that it is something that does not to be a REQUIRED instrument. Once upon a time, yes, but with technology as it is there is, I believe, good argument for alternative equipment and we need to look forward. I can't comment on someone stupid enough not to turn on generators and that is really stretching it a bit as a good reason to mandate installation. There are plenty of people who are going to do stupid stuff no matter what equipment they have and that is hardly reason to tar everyone else with the same brush and we should not have to pander to the lowest common denominator.

If you want an 'agricultural' home built and 'do ok with steam powered instruments' then please accept that I have never said you shouldn't do anything else. I, on the other hand, don't want 'agricultural', nor steam powered instruments and don't really see why I should be required to install something that I will never use and, for which, I have better, more modern, more accurate alternatives. As an example, it is my intention to install a combined, electronic, backup instrument instead of having a 'steam gauge' ASI or altimeter. This, as required by the LAA will have its own backup battery. I am looking at the likes of the Funke BFI57. This not only has the ASI and altimeter but also has the GPS track displayed (from its own, separate, antenna). Now, am I allowed to use that instead of a wet compass.....of course not. Instead of having a great bit of kit, with its own power supply that will outlast the fuel in my tanks several times over, that actually tells me what I'm doing I have to install an inaccurate left over from Wilbur, with all of its attendant errors to which I then have to apply drift etc etc, all the while dealing with the problem that lead to me being on backup power in the first place. It is my argument that the track function in the instrument is FAR more useful to flight safety than a wet compass but I have to have one of those because 'that's what we've always done'.

I will now attempt the impossible and wander out into the Indian Ocean in search of fish. Despite my RN training I won't be using a plotting table, chart or sextant but my Garmin GPS plotter/sounder. The shock and horror is that my boat doesn't have a compass What will happen if the electrics fail? Will I just put the afternoon sun on my back and head east until I see land and then figure it out from there? Will I take the iPhone out of its waterproof case and look on the map and/or inbuilt compass? I'm sure there are more options but there's a couple that will see me perfectly safe and prove positive that I've got it easier than Nelson and don't really need his nav kit. It is my contention that we apply the same thinking to our aircraft and be a bit more forward-thinking than relying on Orville's navigation tips

[jangiolini]

Hi Paul I must point out you have either inadvertently or purposely avoided the subject of JAMMING of all coms particularly GPS which, as ex RN, you must have heard about! Operation Joint Warrior RN, Army and RAF purposely jam GPS over a very large area of the west coast of Scotland to make the various forces use alternative navigation as in the time of conflict they will very probably be destroyed, turned off or encrypted
I have had first hand experience of this while flying with Helimed5 Air ambulance out to Barra (Inner Hebrides)with no GPS and only a wet compass for navigation so your argument really doesn't hold water and if your still of that view then I would not like to fly with you as you are reducing your options for navigation and safety by a huge margin!
I would imagine that this reason alone is why a wet compass and map is still mandated.
John.

[PaulSS]

Jeez, talk about flogging a dead horse. When did that GPS event happen? How many times? How long did it actually affect you? Why didn't you read the NOTAMS which would have told you about the jamming? What precautions do you take against hurricanes as we had one of those once in the UK as well. You're hardly helping your argument by suggesting that in times of conflict, that are bad enough for our military to have lost their satellites, you're going to go bimbling around the Highlands in a home built

Yes, I do understand GPS jamming and I also understand risk assessment. Your banging on about a once-in-a lifetime event as if it is the end of the world is hardly reason enough for mandating the carriage of ancient, inaccurate kit of dubious value, especially when I am suggesting other forms of navigation equipment that do not rely on GPS. Have you heard of RAIM prediction? Do you realise how easy it is to use?

I'm not asking you to fly with me and I really won't lose any sleep over your reluctance to do so. However, I would be looking a lot closer to home if you believe that the only way you can navigate a helimed helicopter without a GPS is by using a wet compass. I know a lot of the police and helimed guys, have flown with them a number of times and can absolutely guarantee their first port of call is not an E2B when the GPS goes down.

Please don't concern yourself too much on my behalf for navigating without GPS or a wet compass. I've managed sufficiently well thus far and am confident in my abilities to continue doing so. However, when the military turn the satellite switch off and I'm stunned by my inability to look out of the window and compare ground features to map I will still have access to a compass that is just as accurate as the thing that is currently mandated. There will still be one on my EFIS, there will still be one on my panel mounted iPad, there's even one on the iPhone in my pocket. NONE of them require GPS. AND when I'm stupid enough to be flying around in my home-built during wartime, with all the GPS turned off and have had a double generator failure and the batteries have inexplicably died on my iPad and I've lost the ability to look out of the window; I've still got stuff on my iPhone that is just as good as the panel-mounted E2B. If this is not enough to calm your fears then I suggest staying in bed all day because it's far too dangerous out there

So, as we can see, having no GPS does not suddenly render all forms of compass, bar the mandated 'wet' one, inoperable. QED......

[Chris Martyr]

In the unlikely event of the magnetic compass ceasing to be a requirement , I will most certainly not be dispensing with mine .
How other people would contend with such circumstances is entirely their business !

But to me , it's a cost-effective , low maintenance , compact and unobtrusive little 'get out of jail' card . It is also a very accurate and very welcome piece of instrumentation in my cockpit .

And that's where it's going to stay !

[PaulSS]

Chris,

I am not, for one moment, suggesting that compasses should be required to be removed or their installation banned for those that want them and believe the same as you; that how people equip their machine is their business. All I am saying is that there are plenty of our sources of the same information, that weren't available when the rules were written and that we should not mandate the fitting of a compass if those other sources are available/fitted in an aircraft. Other authorities have moved with the times and I believe the LAA should do the same.

[Chris Martyr]

Hi Paul.
It's fairly evident from what you've written here that you are an experienced aviator and an intelligent chap......[ Not sure I could scrape into either of those categories... ]

I think the only thing that worries some of the other contributors to this debate is that the mandatory magnetic compass would be considered obsolete and replaced by the mandatory fitment of something more prohibitive , cost-wise.

Personally , I can't see this happening and I would have no problem whatsoever with guys with slightly more advanced avionics and certain LAA approved fitments being exempted from the use of more traditional instrumentation if they can get that one past the 'Fed's' ,,,,,and therein lies the rub.

It would be an uphill struggle anyway getting it past the CAA and even then it may then only get approval on a national basis ,,,and I'm not sure if anyone here has enough time left on the planet to engage with the Euro-Clowns on this one.
It would be ironic indeed if it received national approval but not EASA.

Perhaps you could do a compromise . Remove it from your cockpit and then Velcro it back in if required for 'selective occasions' ..............

[PaulSS]

Well, I'll certainly join you in being ousted from the hallowed halls of experience and intelligence

You've probably got a very good point with the Euro-Clowns. There's probably a European Ministry Of Compasses and they'll be doing their normal job of self justification and blocking any attempts to kill their cash cow

I'm not so disparaging of the CAA Most of my experiences with them have been positive and I think they are prepared to look forward but, then again, I've never tried to introduce new laws or construction requirements, so I can understand why the status quo is enjoyed so much and opinions such as mine not welcomed.

I definitely don't want to see new equipment mandated, even if I do consider it more useful than the wet compass (other, dry, vertical-mounted equipment is also available) but I would just like to see a more open-minded approach and realise things like the track feature in the likes of the Funke BFI57 are at least equally as useful as an E2B in a backup situation and that builders should have more options in the equipment they choose to install. I think the only mandate should be being able to get your machine safely from A to B in a backup mode, be that electronic or mechanical.

I like your removable thinking but even the rebel in me wouldn't

[mike newall]

Note to self.....

Don't fly in a King Air

[jangiolini]

Hi Mike the Kingair is a great aircraft! Some of the pilots that fly them are not!
John

[PaulSS]

Does the King Air have a poor compass system? I'm just trying to see the relevance of not flying in one.

[Trevor Harvey]

Sorry to bounce this back up but I'm afraid I am an advocate of wet compasses, air pressure driven instruments, self contained magnetos, and anything else that is self contained and unreliant on anything else but is own construction.
Most electronic devices can get fried by various means apart from Kim or Trump.
My vacuum DI failed through dirty filter/maintenance, the old GPS Airspace Aware thing was too small to read with my head getting bashed off the roof in serious turbulence and didn't have the magenta line installed, the magnetic compass was swinging through at least 45 deg either side of track. But was the only instrument capable of some form of direction indication.
Navigation amounted to keeping the North Sea on the right, the cloudbase overhead and the green bit underneath.
After about 4 hours flying, on another occasion, Mr GPS iPad went "ping" battery 3%. Luckily I had 2miles to run so guesstimate based on local terrain knowledge and wet compass heading.

It may well be antiquated, often redundant, and I wouldn't rely on it to thread the needle through the glens of Scotland at 200 ft/400knots but it is still a warm cuddly safety blanket. Just don't stand a tin bucket next to it.

[PaulSS]

Just don't stand a tin bucket next to it.

Haha, reminds me of the compass deviation card for the standby compass in the work machine. It says something like 'radio receivers on'. The cynic in me then has a big thinks bubble coming out my head, "Hold on, the only time I'm going to look at this is if my machine has run out of electricity. Therefore......."

[Trevor Harvey]

Just don't stand a tin bucket next to it.

Haha, reminds me of the compass deviation card for the standby compass in the work machine. It says something like 'radio receivers on'. The cynic in me then has a big thinks bubble coming out my head, "Hold on, the only time I'm going to look at this is if my machine has run out of electricity. Therefore......."

Aha, not necessarily!!, you may have run out of GPS signals, you forgot to charge the backup battery to the backup sextant, you also left your phone on your girlfriends bedside table, you threw out the vacuum DI along with the wet one. The radio is all you have and they give you vectors? Devils advocate indeed.

[PaulSS]

"Start turn, now. Stop turn, now"

I used to quite like doing no compass, no gyro approaches and making the air traffickers work hard