ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Come on in for general chat and POLITE banter between LAA members

Moderators: John Dean, Moderator

Locked
DJL
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:44 pm

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by DJL » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:24 pm

In amongst the strong feelings on the forum I think there should be room for an alternative view. Our association is dedicated to recreational flying. Flying for fun and sport. Mixing with people who share our love of flying. To hold something like this together we have to make sure everyone is treated fairly in the best sporting tradition. Yet all members ultimately know that Tracey Curtis-Taylor, a long-standing member, wasn’t treated fairly and we need to look at that.

Two years ago we didn’t quite appreciate how a targeted internet campaign could destroy a person’s reputation, doing damage way beyond any claimed misdemeanour. When you’re in the cross-hairs of a nasty online campaign waged by a small number of people with an objective of causing damage there is no way out, no-one to appeal to for a just hearing.

So how did this all come about? Four years ago in 2014 the Awards group decided to award the Woodhams Trophy to Tracey Curtis-Taylor. Like other awards over the years it wasn’t contentious and attracted no further attention for nearly a year and a half. Then a nasty and vicious campaign started against her on the internet forums. David Mole in his motion says there was apparently a serious falling out between her and her support, but that cannot be our concern. Why did the allegations take so long to surface? And why were they relevant since they weren’t the basis for the award? Who knows, but it culminated in a member’s motion for the 2016 AGM. The upshot was the motion on the proxy voting form posted with the magazine for reconsideration and rescinding of the award for bringing the LAA into disrepute. No evidence whatsoever was presented, and Tracey was given no opportunity to defend herself to proxy voters.

At the AGM members listened to Barry Tempest present his motion, Harry Hopkins as Awards chair explained the reasoning of his group and their investigation of the allegations. He recommended voting against it, and Tracey had the opportunity to defend herself. The members present voted overwhelmingly for her. But it had already been decided by the weight of proxy voters who had heard none of the arguments or evidence. Fewer than 100 members attend the AGM on average and in addition there are usually around 40-50 proxy votes. In 2016 the votes of the attendees were swamped by nearly treble the usual number of proxy votes. That guaranteed that the votes of those present were irrelevant. There was uproar on the floor when the result was announced, shouts of Disgraceful! and a large number of members got up and walked out.

They almost certainly thought that what had happened did not meet the LAA’s principle of fairness and justice. And it is probably what drove Tracey to keep plugging away for a review.

The LAA has the ability to punish members who act inappropriately, and in turn is duty-bound to support members against unfair allegations. When there were allegations that Tracey had brought the LAA into disrepute the board could have called her in if they felt there were grounds to it. Those who have said that the matter should have been resolved this way rather than at an AGM vote are absolutely right. Instead she was left to press her defence herself. If she had not been robust in doing it, I am certain the motions for reinstatement would not be going to this year’s AGM.

So now we’re in the situation where we have two motions before the AGM. A Vice President, the Company Secretary and the Chairman all indicate support for reinstatement. The difference between the motions appears to hinge on whether it was mishandled by the board. In my mind there is no question that was the case, and I was a member of it so I need to accept responsibility for its decisions too.

We need to admire Stewart Jackson for acting with his conscience with his motion to redress a wrong and reverse the 2016 motion. It was a very brave thing to do. I too am ashamed of what was done in the LAA’s name. If there’s criticism of the LAA it’s not misplaced.

It’s time to look at ourselves. Our numbers are declining as the older members die out, and our average age of 60 is increasing by nearly a year every year. We are almost all men. This matter has done our standing serious damage amongst outsiders. It’s no wonder we’re seen as aviation’s old boys club. The next generation is not signing up, and without them we have no future.

Remember it’s a sport. You don’t withdraw an award years after the event based on a nasty online campaign. The Awards committee looked closely at allegations and decided there weren’t grounds for withdrawal. It was pushed through by proxy voters who hadn’t heard the arguments. It has damaged our reputation and made us look misogynistic. We need to be generous and fix it by voting for both motions. Even if you normally don’t vote, please do so this year. Our association’s future well-being could just depend on it. Let’s play the game in a way that makes us attractive to young women and men, and encourages them to join us.

Derek Lamb

User avatar
ChampChump
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:12 am
Location: Hellfire Corner

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by ChampChump » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:04 pm

It has damaged our reputation and made us look misogynistic.
Why? I don't think it does.

Sorry for repeating myself but of all the accusations that might be levelled against the organisation and the deeds mentioned, misogyny isn't one. It gets my goat. I doubt it would have been different for a male.
Nic Orchard
031626

DaveWhite
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:44 pm
Location: Warminster

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by DaveWhite » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:21 pm

DJL wrote:No evidence whatsoever was presented, and Tracey was given no opportunity to defend herself to proxy voters.
There has been two years' worth of opportunity since then.
--
Dave White
025501

User avatar
Chris Martyr
Posts: 584
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:58 am
Location: Horsted Keynes Sussex

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by Chris Martyr » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:27 pm

T Wilcock wrote: What a pity that it is on such a divisive subject.
I fully agree with your post Tim. But I do console my myself with the thought that LAA'ers are a bunch of very happy and contented little souls . The reason why this forum is normally fairly quiet is because most things in 'LAA world' are just fine .

But ; Divisive subject ?.....I believe that the big reason that this forum is red hot is because most readers are totally at one on this .
022516

RDyer
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:30 pm

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by RDyer » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:08 pm

Wow...

Not logged on for a while. I kind of always feel that the LAA is a safe and secure corner to escape in a world of Trump, Brexit, and all the rampant change that technology is bringing to our planet. Then I saw something on Flyer and came here...

Well my two pence worth is not really needed and not really worth anything as I am a white middle-aged man. Consequently I am to blame for everything from racism to slavery to why some people can not scratch their own rear ends.

At work (working for our Government), I have diversity and inclusion permanent driven into my head. I am made completely aware that diversity and inclusion does not really include me.

Still I will say this - I admire what TCT has done. Many people of either sex now sit on their rear ends and watch dumb tv whilst numbing themselves with beer and chocolate. She has managed to achieve things that I neither have money, luck, time for. I hope that I would also be able to achieve those things if I could, but I am humble enough to only trade on what I do, not what I hope I could or believe that I would do.

But I am confused as to why she does not recognise the mistake of declaring to have done more than what she did. To do what she did was great and an achievement in its own - why embellish or continue to defend the embellishment?

So to her, I say show a humble side, trade in what you have done and be proud in what you have done. Apologise or at least recognise the mistake of presenting an exaggerated claim. There is nothing better for the soul than to self-examine and reconcile one's actions with one's humility. The best way to gain respect is to show respect to that which you seek.

But if I were TCT, I would now get in that plane and do the trip completely solo and throw away the GPS too. That would be the best way to get the trophy back and defend her record. Do that and I am sure that I would not be the only member to propose a new motion and many would openly be willing to eat humble pie.
Robert Dyer
036801

User avatar
Chris Martyr
Posts: 584
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:58 am
Location: Horsted Keynes Sussex

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by Chris Martyr » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:16 pm

DJL wrote: There was uproar on the floor when the result was announced, shouts of Disgraceful! and a large number of members got up and walked out. Derek Lamb
Derek : Thank you for taking the time to post. A missive of that magnitude must have taken a substantial slice out of your Sunday evening .

Unfortunately though , the piece that I have quoted above shows your post as being nothing more than complete and utter fabrication .

You are talking about normal , rank & file LAA people [of both sexes] here . Unfortunately , that includes me , plus a few others who were also present . I am sure that others who were present at Sywell on Oct22nd 2016 will confirm that there was no such thing !
Oh,,,and the folk who left early , only did so because the weather was starting to draw in on them ! They had flown through pretty marginal conditions to register their feelings and most certainly did not leave the Cirrus Suite in a huff on Tracey's account !

One person who had NOT flown in though , but also took the opportunity to leave the room before the LAA Q & A session took place , went straight to the Aviator Bar.

The reason ? Probably because she has no interest whatsoever in core LAA matters . Unless they are about her !

The content of your post is little more than the dodging and weaving that has bulked up all of the other posts from the TC-T camp.

Were you not voted in on that date Derek ? I seem to remember that you were .
Last edited by Chris Martyr on Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
022516

User avatar
Chris Martyr
Posts: 584
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:58 am
Location: Horsted Keynes Sussex

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by Chris Martyr » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:27 pm

RDyer wrote: She has managed to achieve things that I neither have money, luck, time for..
Got it in one ............ :D
022516

RDyer
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:30 pm

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by RDyer » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:47 pm

One thing I will add whilst various claims of sexism and such abound.

To me, the LAA does something special. In a world that is becoming more polarised between the haves and have nots, the LAA gives people like me the chance to part own, build and fly. In this sense it does something to offer a chance of equality in the sky. If it were not for the LAA, then I and many others of both sexes would have to relinquish the sky to the rich and privileged. As a low rank civil servant, I would never be able to afford the CAA types and the maintenance bills and as with so much else in today's modern Britain, I would be forced to forget my dreams and doff my cap to those who relish looking down on people like me.

So I implore everyone to preserve the LAA and ask Tracey to not tie up our organisation in legal fees. The LAA actually does stand for diversity and equality in the biggest battle of them all - the battle of wealth.
Robert Dyer
036801

User avatar
Chris Martyr
Posts: 584
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:58 am
Location: Horsted Keynes Sussex

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by Chris Martyr » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:21 pm

RDyer wrote:To me, the LAA does something special.
You're damn right it does RDyer !.... :D

The LAA has a whole bunch of people , whose expertise allows us normal folk to get up in the ether and beat those molecules up .

Its expertise and its approval from the CAA are the difference between me flying the arse out of that brilliant little aeroplane [which took me 7yrs to build] in the top RH of the picture and me renting some absurdly priced spamcan and doing the standard 12hrs in the 2nd year .

It sounds like you and I are kindred spirits mate .. :D

I know that this topic has become very , very poisoned indeed , but I have a funny feeling that there are more people reading this who identify with our type of aviation , rather than the world of champagne & lobster thermidor fuelled jollies financed by billion dollar global giants and then awarded for their 'achievement'.

And the really galling part is that they get lauded from the top table as being exemplary at what they do !
They don't lower themselves to our level : Because they can't !......... :D
Last edited by Chris Martyr on Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
022516

User avatar
ChampChump
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:12 am
Location: Hellfire Corner

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by ChampChump » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:31 pm

I am sure I'd not be flying at all now without the LAA. The costs would be way beyond me doing anything like enough to remain current, let alone feel current. I know many feel the same. It was good to spend hours in the air again today, getting away from thoughts of the AGM but I suspect not everyone has that privilege right now.

I hope that the heated debate before, during and after the voting has no lasting ill-effects on those who keep us flying. We know who you are. :)
Nic Orchard
031626

Clarkie
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 6:03 pm

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by Clarkie » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:49 pm

...it had already been decided by the weight of proxy voters who had heard none of the arguments or evidence. Fewer than 100 members attend the AGM on average and in addition there are usually around 40-50 proxy votes. In 2016 the votes of the attendees were swamped by nearly treble the usual number of proxy votes. That guaranteed that the votes of those present were irrelevant. There was uproar...

They almost certainly thought that what had happened did not meet the LAA’s principle of fairness and justice.
The reason for the large number of proxy votes was for the very reason that members had heard the arguments and evidence. The conspiracy theory that this was organised on the basis of a personal disagreement between two people is just that, a conspiracy theory. Another, just as likely, theory is that the ‘old boy network’ is applying influence and privilege here.
The principles of the LAA of which people speak are not explicit, they appear nowhere on the website and are just people’s interpretation of what they think they should be. In fact, the most prominent principle is to promote aviation for “the man in the street”. This whole project to a non-aviation person just underlines the image of light aviation as the preserve of the rich and well-connected. Fairness and justice are noble principles, of course, but what of honesty, humility, selflessness? These are principles that appear lacking in this story and, to me, these are reasons why the feeling is so strong. Someone in another place spoke of an ‘equivocator’.
On another point, as a trainer, both in light and heavy aircraft I have to stress that the cornerstone of our world is what used to be called ‘airmanship’. There are several events and actions that have been proudly talked about that made me wince. If such attitudes were displayed in my world they would be called ‘career limiting’.
Andrew Clarke
039187

Paul Catanach
Posts: 152
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:12 pm

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by Paul Catanach » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:57 pm

Chris Martyr wrote:
DJL wrote: There was uproar on the floor when the result was announced, shouts of Disgraceful! and a large number of members got up and walked out. Derek Lamb
Derek : Thank you for taking the time to post. A missive of that magnitude must have taken a substantial slice out of your Sunday evening .

I am sure that others who were present at Sywell on Oct22nd 2016 will confirm that there was no such thing !

I too was there and do not recall any mass walkout.

There was a bit of harrumphing from a few in Miss Curtis-Taylor's support team and indeed they were already in the bar when we got there later (it was our AGM so as members we had stayed to hear all the other items on the agenda) but I certainly do not recall the scene described above.

Just a thought on the proxy votes that seem to have been such a problem for some. If there are a large number of these at the AGM and they carry the motions will the proposers vie to have these discounted?

User avatar
Chris Martyr
Posts: 584
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:58 am
Location: Horsted Keynes Sussex

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by Chris Martyr » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:17 pm

DJL wrote: shouts of Disgraceful!
Actually there wasn't !





[but there should have been ]
Last edited by Chris Martyr on Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
022516

samrutherford
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:46 am
Contact:

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by samrutherford » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:39 am

@DJL

Hi Derek,

Tracey has had about three years to respond to these 'foul allegations'.

Her responses until now have been limited to more of the same, deceit, whitewashing, aggression and threats. I'm not convinced that this behaviour is worthy of support, let alone the honour of an award or trophy.

But, it's not up to me, at the AGM the members will vote...

On that, a couple of reflections:
  • How will the Chair use "his" proxy votes this time? Last time he simply added to the majority, will it be the same again?

    Has there been an increase in new memberships recently? Somebody else posted this earlier (joking about the Labour party leadership elections) and I discounted it as ridiculous, but...?

PaulSS
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:04 am

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by PaulSS » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:17 am

Yet all members ultimately know that Tracey Curtis-Taylor, a long-standing member, wasn’t treated fairly and we need to look at that.
Don't include me in your sweeping statements; I think she has been treated fairly. If you're dishonest and get caught then expect to suffer the consequences.

Thankfully the inaccuracies and untrue exaggerations in the rest of your post show that your statement above can be disregarded as being true.
Paul Simmonds-Short
042301

Locked