ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

[Paul Catanach]

...but this situation would never have arisen had the LAA Board not allowed its AGM to be used as a vehicle for a campaign of personal retribution by Mr Rutherford and friends

On the contrary.

This situation would never had arisen had your publicity been factual and when called into question, honest.

The proximate cause of all this lies nowhere near the LAA board or those who called out the constant re-writing of the accounts of your endeavours. Do you not have any real friends to tell you how this looks to the outside world?

Try hard, really hard, to look at the picture below and imagine if anyone is really convinced by your assertion that this is “ambiguous” and intended to represent Lady Heath.

The logo in the top, left hand corner is YOURS.
The destination, Goodwood is YOURS. Lady Heath flew to Croydon.
The route is YOURS.
The start date is YOURS.
The planned timescale is YOURS, Lady Heath’s was three months.
The ‘Spirit Of Artemis’ caption in the bottom, right hand corner is YOURS.

Could I make it any clearer? People SEE this, they are not fooled by the desperate explanation that has taken you two years to think up. Just stop. For the love of Pete, stop it now.

It is still not too late for you to walk away with some credibility and dignity intact. If those around you were honest they would tell you the same thing. Pushing this to whatever conclusion on Sunday will do nobody any good. Nobody is going to ‘win’.

[Trevor Harvey]

P5151 wrote:
Your argument is really stupid it’s a pity you cannot see the difference between taking up a passenger who is incapable of assisting in a flight and one who is not.


Are you sure you are actually a pilot of aircraft of any kind?
Because as any pilot/instructor will tell you. As far as flying an aircraft goes, there is no difference.
So as far as your arguments are concerned I'm going to bow out, it's getting painful banging my head on the wall.

[Gerry Holland]

With the AGM almost upon us, with various arguments and bias fully exercised can we now call it a day!
If you havent voted......Vote! If you have......await the result!
Gerry

[Chris Martyr]

Point of order ;

As per the award committee chair Anthony Hopkins:

Wrong Hopkins . You must've been thinking of 'Silence of the Lambs'.

[SteveSlater]

Steve.........

Thank you for information re. Bill Woodhams Trophy. I was unaware of the
W.G. Armstrong Whitworth connection. Obviously one of the real pioneers
of the PFA...... A sad loss. Shame the Trophy is the subject of such
controversy. Would be interesting to see a list of previous recipients.

As requested:

BILL WOODHAMS TROPHY RECIPIENTS:


1978 DAVID MASSEY
1979 PAT HOLMES
1980 MARK SMITH & PIERS BOLAM( For flight around coast of UK.)
1985 ALPHA ONE GROUP (For flight to Finland)
1986 DAVID GRAY (For flight to Madeira.)
1989 ANTONY SMITH (For solo flight from Australia in a CASA JUNGMANN)
1990 PAUL PENN SAYERS (For flight to Czechoslovakia in a PIPER VAGABOND)
1991 JOHN STAINER (for his many flights around Europe.)
1993 ROGER JONES (For his flights into Eastern Europe)
1994 MIKE BENWELL
1996 TIM BARRON (For non-stop flight from Lausanne CH to Glos.)
1997 RICHARD MOLE (For flight to North Cape in Jodel D.18 G-TREK)
1998 TONY PEARCE ( For his flights around Europe)
1999 TONY SMITH & JOHN LUSHER ( For flight in Europa to South Africa)
2003 COLIN HALES & NADINE BRAUNS IN KR2 G-BSTL –England to Australia.
2004 NICK RIDDING AND RAY CLEGG in KISS CRUISER G-BYZD - UK to OSHKOSH 2003
2006 MANUEL QUEIROZ VANS RV6 G-GDRV ROUND THE WORLD FLIGHT.
2010 STEVE NOUJAIM for his world record 2 way trip to Capetown from UK
2011 TAFF SMITH for his attempt on the 2 way record to Capetown
2012 PETER GORMAN & ESSAM BISHAR. Dublin to Capetown and return
2014 TRACEY CURTIS-TAYLOR for her flight from Capetown to Cairo (rescinded)
2017 COLIN HALES for his extensive flights in his Rand KR-2.

[Bilko2]

Because as any pilot/instructor will tell you. As far as flying an aircraft goes, there is no difference.

I don't think anyone is disputing that a second pilot is that useful for the basic flying of the aircraft (keeping it the right way up and following the magenta line) ...... though obviously on long legs that can be helpful too!

Flying long distances in places like central Africa is about planning, fuel, weather and making decisions. Should I go under/round/over that cloud, what are the fuel implications of that? is there a thunderstorm/mountain behind it? Should I press on into bad weather or turn back to an unfriendly airfield that doesn't have avgas etc etc etc. It is very very helpful to have an experienced pilot to help with these sorts of judgments.

Also being alone in an aircraft in the middle of nowhere, out of contact, completely dependent on yourself can be quite intimidating, again someone else in the cockpit makes a big difference.

[P5151]

...but this situation would never have arisen had the LAA Board not allowed its AGM to be used as a vehicle for a campaign of personal retribution by Mr Rutherford and friends

On the contrary.

This situation would never had arisen had your publicity been factual and when called into question, honest.

The proximate cause of all this lies nowhere near the LAA board or those who called out the constant re-writing of the accounts of your endeavours. Do you not have any real friends to tell you how this looks to the outside world?

Try hard, really hard, to look at the picture below and imagine if anyone is really convinced by your assertion that this is “ambiguous” and intended to represent Lady Heath.

The logo in the top, left hand corner is YOURS.
The destination, Goodwood is YOURS. Lady Heath flew to Croydon.
The route is YOURS.
The start date is YOURS.
The planned timescale is YOURS, Lady Heath’s was three months.
The ‘Spirit Of Artemis’ caption in the bottom, right hand corner is YOURS.

Could I make it any clearer? People SEE this, they are not fooled by the desperate explanation that has taken you two years to think up. Just stop. For the love of Pete, stop it now.

It is still not too late for you to walk away with some credibility and dignity intact. If those around you were honest they would tell you the same thing. Pushing this to whatever conclusion on Sunday will do nobody any good. Nobody is going to ‘win’.

Paul,

I am in total agreement that TCT has used misguided tactics to try to defend herself from the decision of the AGM. She is though correct to make the case that the proxy votes were made without hearing here defence. No one in their right mind can call this a fair hearing if decisions are made without hearing both sides. I worked in law enforcement for over 30 years and am frankly appalled that people have cast votes against her without a proper hearing.

I am asking myself how many of her critics have made a flight which comes anywhere close to what she did, have you?

As I understand there has been no attempt to claim that what TCT did copied in its entirety the original flight...... please correct me if I am wrong.

Of course having another pair of eyes in the cockpit helps, if that pair of eyes is also a capable pilot even better, no one can dispute that. Can anyone though provide evidence that any of the people in the aeroplane with her did much of the flying for her? Can anyone prove she did not fly on any of the legs?

When I look at that map, I still think it was a fantastic achievement by all concerned because it goes well beyond what most of us do. The fact that she landed at airfield x rather than y does not detract from the fact that the flight was over a vast distance over some pretty wild areas.

Lady Heaths flight, like Alex Henshaws flight were truly fantastic the likes of them are rarely going to be seen again. Technology has moved on, infrastructure has improved round the world, support is available that did not exist in the past. Are people really trying to suggest that to achieve an award like this trophy it must be done without the benefit of things that bring a better safety margin.


It seems to me that TCT is her own worst enemy in that she has supplied evidence in contradictory statements made about the flight, she has made the situation worse by attacking people within the LAA.
So I can understand why people have taken her on. However, when I look at that flight and compare it to a trip to France, or Germany.....there is really no comparison.

Perhaps, the difference between me and many members is that for over 30 years I was dealing with obnoxious people who’s character I did not like much, but my career required I give them a fair hearing before deciding whether to make a case against them. I have learnt that people often describe things incorrectly to make things look better for them, or describe things incorrectly simply by choosing words that can be interpreted in a way they are not mean.

The award was not given for being a likeable person who never blew her own trumpet. It was not given because it faithfully recreated Lady Heaths flight in all details. It was not given because she threw the GPS out of the window and did dead reckoning, nor was it because she never flew all the legs alone.

It was given because compared to what most of us do this was a fantastic flight.

[jollyrog]

@ Steve Arnold

Perhaps, the difference between me and many members is that for over 30 years I was dealing with obnoxious people who’s character I did not like much, but my career required I give them a fair hearing before deciding whether to make a case against them. I have learnt that people often describe things incorrectly to make things look better for them, or describe things incorrectly simply by choosing words that can be interpreted in a way they are not mean.

She's far from being a hapless criminal suspect, on the back foot and trying to big him/herself up a bit in the face of authority.

She's an educated, articulate person whose words and representations were carefully chosen for and by her to promote and continue to promote a commercial venture. It started to fall apart when her peers became tired of the misrepresentation and exposed it.

Instead of immediately correcting the errors, she twisted and persists with them. She's out there now, earning money on the publicity circuit with this drivel. Respected aviation organisations like ours should distance themselves from it and publicly upholding the revocation of the award is a sign that we don't condone it. Perhaps it's easy to impress schoolgirls or the Women's Institute with these stories, but as is obvious, those of us in the know are just not buying it.

If she was a nice person who didn't make outrageous claims, everyone would have smiled when she was given the award and nobody would have trawled for the background. She's the author of her own misfortune, by generally peeing off the aviation community, which caused some to ask questions and expose her.

If we are doing comparisons, in your (former) world, it might be called perjury.

[Brian Hope]

No one in their right mind can call this a fair hearing if decisions are made without hearing both sides. I worked in law enforcement for over 30 years and am frankly appalled that people have cast votes against her without a proper hearing.

Hi Steve, the issue with proxy voting is that by its very nature, those who do not attend the meeting do not have an opportunity to listen to any information presented at the meeting. This cuts both ways though, you could change your mind either way having voted for or against a motion.
In this day and age of social media, anybody can post their view one way or the other on any number of forums. I do not recall TC-T posting any counter arguments on the LAA forum in 2016, but the opportunity was there for her to do so. She has commented that she did not know proxy voting was in force, but the forms and AGM details were distributed almost three weeks before the AGM, and notice of the AGM, including details of how the proxy voting system worked, were in the September magazine, seven weeks before the AGM took place.
By your reckoning, TC-T has the advantage this time around because the Motions and her accompanying explanations, have been sent directly to every member, but those who disagree with the Motions have had no way to air their views directly via the LAA, other than on the forum.
I do not believe we operate differently to most AGMs where proxy voting is permitted. I agree it is not a perfect system but we either start the process months in advance and fill the magazine with countless arguments – why on earth do that when the forum allows such debate – or we forgo a proxy system altogether. At least the proxy system allows every member to vote, and that has to be a more democratic arrangement.

[Clarkie]

I am asking myself how many of her critics have made a flight which comes anywhere close to what she did, have you?

As I understand there has been no attempt to claim that what TCT did copied in its entirety the original flight...... please correct me if I am wrong.

Of course having another pair of eyes in the cockpit helps, if that pair of eyes is also a capable pilot even better, no one can dispute that. Can anyone though provide evidence that any of the people in the aeroplane with her did much of the flying for her? Can anyone prove she did not fly on any of the legs?

When I look at that map, I still think it was a fantastic achievement...


....The award was not given for being a likeable person who never blew her own trumpet. It was not given because it faithfully recreated Lady Heaths flight in all details. It was not given because she threw the GPS out of the window and did dead reckoning, nor was it because she never flew all the legs alone.

It was given because compared to what most of us do this was a fantastic flight.

Firstly, you misunderstand the reason for the discussion about the slide. The reason it’s being talked about is because of the caption “alone in an open cock-pit (sic) plane” which appears on the slide photographed behind TCT giving a talk. The equivocation is that “it wasn’t about me”, but it is clear that it was.

Secondly, the award may or may not have been given for any of the reasons above. That was not the point, as I understand it, of the 2016 motion. It was about the disrepute that the LAA may (have) come into if it were to give an award to an enterprise that turned out not to be what was claimed in all the publicity before or after. Compare again to Lance Armstrong and imagine that the college that rescinded his honorary degree saying instead: “it doesn’t matter about the drugs he took, that was a jolly impressive ride through France”.
(I would like to point out that this is just to make a point and that there is no suggestion that TCT did anything illegal or took performance-enhancing drugs).

[P5151]

Roger

Valid arguments......thanks.


To Tracy I say this. You have the opportunity to answer your critics on this forum, so far you have not taken that opportunity. I have supported you in pointing out to others why your comments about Due Process and being stictched up have merit. You should have realised by now blaming others, casting innuendos about our Chairman and calling us misogynistic is working against you and alienating more against you.

So, we are 4 days away from the next AGM, take the opportunity to answer the questions that have been asked of you and make your case. If you do not then if the matter is decided against you by proxy votes you only have yourself to blame. I know you put a piece in with the AGM documentation but this did not apparently answer outstanding question, moreover it probably annoyed many of the membership for the @bove reasons.

[L21-B]

Roger

Valid arguments......thanks.


To Tracy I say this. You have the opportunity to answer your critics on this forum, so far you have not taken that opportunity. I have supported you in pointing out to others why your comments about Due Process and being stictched up have merit. You should have realised by now blaming others, casting innuendos about our Chairman and calling us misogynistic is working against you and alienating more against you.

So, we are 4 days away from the next AGM, take the opportunity to answer the questions that have been asked of you and make your case. If you do not then if the matter is decided against you by proxy votes you only have yourself to blame. I know you put a piece in with the AGM documentation but this did not apparently answer outstanding question, moreover it probably annoyed many of the membership for the @bove reasons.

She has continually evaded giving any direct answers to questions asked.

I wouldn't expect TCT to start giving accurate answers now because she is far to deep in to the lies and deception, to be a good liar you have to remember what you have said and Tracey is not good at that, it is clearly evident from her replies on this and other forums.

[Planemike]

Steve.........

Thank you for information re. Bill Woodhams Trophy. I was unaware of the
W.G. Armstrong Whitworth connection. Obviously one of the real pioneers
of the PFA...... A sad loss. Shame the Trophy is the subject of such
controversy. Would be interesting to see a list of previous recipients.

As requested:

BILL WOODHAMS TROPHY RECIPIENTS:


1978 DAVID MASSEY
1979 PAT HOLMES
1980 MARK SMITH & PIERS BOLAM( For flight around coast of UK.)
1985 ALPHA ONE GROUP (For flight to Finland)
1986 DAVID GRAY (For flight to Madeira.)
1989 ANTONY SMITH (For solo flight from Australia in a CASA JUNGMANN)
1990 PAUL PENN SAYERS (For flight to Czechoslovakia in a PIPER VAGABOND)
1991 JOHN STAINER (for his many flights around Europe.)
1993 ROGER JONES (For his flights into Eastern Europe)
1994 MIKE BENWELL
1996 TIM BARRON (For non-stop flight from Lausanne CH to Glos.)
1997 RICHARD MOLE (For flight to North Cape in Jodel D.18 G-TREK)
1998 TONY PEARCE ( For his flights around Europe)
1999 TONY SMITH & JOHN LUSHER ( For flight in Europa to South Africa)
2003 COLIN HALES & NADINE BRAUNS IN KR2 G-BSTL –England to Australia.
2004 NICK RIDDING AND RAY CLEGG in KISS CRUISER G-BYZD - UK to OSHKOSH 2003
2006 MANUEL QUEIROZ VANS RV6 G-GDRV ROUND THE WORLD FLIGHT.
2010 STEVE NOUJAIM for his world record 2 way trip to Capetown from UK
2011 TAFF SMITH for his attempt on the 2 way record to Capetown
2012 PETER GORMAN & ESSAM BISHAR. Dublin to Capetown and return
2014 TRACEY CURTIS-TAYLOR for her flight from Capetown to Cairo (rescinded)
2017 COLIN HALES for his extensive flights in his Rand KR-2.

Steve..........

Many thanks for the list.....interesting.
Wonder how extensive a "back-up team" each of them had ?
No, you do not need to answer that rhetorical question.

I see that in several cases two pilots were involved. Oh how much simpler it all
would have been if the 2014 citation read at the time:-
"" TRACEY CURTIS-TAYLOR & EWALD GRITSH "".
Too late now, of course.......!!!

[jollyrog]

She doesn't answer questions, but she uses some of them to make politician style statements about something completely different. Like she's been given media training, or someone is writing a script for her.

Listen to the R5 podcast, questions were answered with statements about how amazing Lady Heath was and how she wants to emulate that and advance the cause of women in aviation.

It's all a marketing machine.

[L21-B]

She doesn't answer questions, but she uses some of them to make politician style statements about something completely different. Like she's been given media training, or someone is writing a script for her.

Listen to the R5 podcast, questions were answered with statements about how amazing Lady Heath was and how she wants to emulate that and advance the cause of women in aviation.

It's all a marketing machine.

When talking to the media on a regular basis i.e. politician you would be briefed and trained never to actually answer the question with a direct answer, you would take the opportunity to promote the things you want to say to divert the interviewer from the original question but make it sound to the general public that you have answered the question.