ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

[P5151]

Hi Graham

No offence taken. I think by and large you will find RV4’s are keeper, I have sold shares in it but as you can guess I am very picky about who I would let fly it.

I sold the Kitfox years ago, I am currently rebuilding the RV9 which went down due to water in the fuel. I am also building a Mustang replica and have a part built Skybolt, which hopefully I will live long enough to complete!

Perhaps I am wrong but the way I underst@nd it is that is two pilots share the flying one will be designated P1 the other P2. Since I am not interested in hour building it really make no difference to me.

I suggest you google this there is loads of discussion all of which seems to confuse the matter, there are even a few terms in use I never heard before.

[Graham Donnelly]

Boeing are still describing her flight as solo on their website, but it’s possible they don’t know anything about aviation

It's a long time since I've laughed so heartily…thank you!

[Graham Donnelly]

Perhaps I am wrong but the way I underst@nd it is that is two pilots share the flying one will be designated P1 the other P2.

I didn't think that was the case.

I know what you say about RV4s, we had a hangar resident who did sell his and it was gone before he made it publicly known locally. I had no intention at the time, but I do wonder if I could have been persuaded. It would be much easier to tempt me today.

Anyway, do you think between us we can continue the much needed thread drift, especially since the proxy vote really is all but done?

[P5151]

Hmmm,

A bit of thread drift probably won't harm especially as TCT appears to have no intention to respond to my suggestion she set the record straight without name calling and innuendo. She can have no complaint if it is decided against her again by majority proxy vote if she does not respond with answers,

[P5151]

Ok time to clear this up. These are the instructions in my log book.

When the aircraft carries more than one pilot as a member of the flight crew one member shall before the flight be designated as Captain or Commander of the flight and his/her name will be entered in the Captain column......... flying time as second pilot.....is entered in the appropriate 'Dual or P2 column.

Whenevever two flight members acting in the same capacity share a particular operating duty the precise time that the logbook holder acted in the capacity must be recorded in the appropriate column with a suitable note in the remarks column.


So, this is as I have explained it.

Hope that helps.

[Paul Catanach]

I am currently rebuilding the RV9 which went down due to water in the fuel. I am also building a Mustang replica and have a part built Skybolt....

Jeez man, you need a hobby.

[P5151]

I have one which I alluded to in our PM:)

And of course scuba diving, and touring Europe on my Bike..........etc.

[DaveWhite]

Paul:

Steve: You're misreading that note in the logbook. "Dual or P2" doesn't mean that "Dual" is the same thing as "P2". It's not. P2 can only be logged if the aircraft legally requires two pilots, and the person logging it is filling the second pilot role. Dual is PUT for a single pilot aircraft such as an LAA type for most SEP.

(Yeah, I know. I need a hobby...)

[Paul Catanach]

(Yeah, I know. I need a hobby...)

Take a leaf out of Steve’s book and build an RV.


Oh, wait............

[T Wilcock]

Steve: You're misreading that note in the logbook. "Dual or P2" doesn't mean that "Dual" is the same thing as "P2". It's not. P2 can only be logged if the aircraft legally requires two pilots, and the person logging it is filling the second pilot role. Dual is PUT for a single pilot aircraft such as an LAA type for most SEP.

(Yeah, I know. I need a hobby...)

Dave: I have a faint hope that, now that this has been said three times on this thread, people will get it right! And of course it's only PUT if the other person is licensed to carry out the training.

[P5151]

Paul:

Steve: You're misreading that note in the logbook. "Dual or P2" doesn't mean that "Dual" is the same thing as "P2". It's not. P2 can only be logged if the aircraft legally requires two pilots, and the person logging it is filling the second pilot role. Dual is PUT for a single pilot aircraft such as an LAA type for most SEP.

(Yeah, I know. I need a hobby...)

Dave, Trevor , I have read the section again it is as I have quoted it, it is not my interpretation it's a direct quote.

It clearly says flying time asa second pilot / first officer shall be entered in the appropriate Dual or P2 column. If I could attach a photo I would.

You and others may now understand why I have some sympathy for TCT because it appears that a lot of
people think they understand this when they don't. That Does not excuse saying flights were made solo when they were clearly dual if that's what happened.

I think the misunderstanding comes about from a miss read first line which is Where the aircraft carries more than one pilot. The operative word is carries not requires. If the operative word were requires the context would be completely changed. In fact it also actually separates or makes a distinction between a second pilot and a first officer. A first officer would be a requirement in commercial but on LAA types a second pilot is not required.


My aircraft can carry two pilots, do people think that a second pilot who is not PIC cannot record his time on the stick in his log book?

[drb]

In a plane that requires two crew, you would have a p1 and a p2. But most (All?) SEPs are single crew aircraft. If you're P1 and not an instructor then no one else can log hours ( though of course what gets written in anyone's logbook is their affair) . If you're with an instructor you can be P1 and he is just a passenger. Alternatively the instructor can be P1 and you can be either a passenger or a pu/t. Neither of you can be P2. Part-FCL refers, though off the top of my head I don't recall which section.

[DaveWhite]

I'm not saying it isn't a direct quote. I know that it is.

I'm saying that your interpretation of the quote is not correct.

Yes, another pilot can log stick time if they are in a single pilot SEP. But if they do, you cannot log the same time unless you or they are an instructor.

But I'm repeating previous posts in the thread, as Trevor points out.

[P5151]

Dave, that is not what it says in my log book. I have quoted exactly what it says. It in no way differentiates between which requires two crew and the wording is such and clearly makes a difference in second pilot or first officer.

The section about pilots under training is completely different and is pretty much as you have evpxplained it.


Sorry but i will go with what my logbook says not your interpretation of it.

This reminds me of a run in I had with an inspector whe I was a a Custody Sergeant who took me to task for dealing with a prisoner in a certain way. I got the relevant section of the law out and read it to him. His response was 'It does not mean that'. (What it said). Then he stood there realising he had not understood the section himself but did not want to back down. The ironic thing was he had been teaching that law to us only months before and he never understood what it meant.

In fact the log book instruction also direct th at P/UT to be entered under the Dual or P2 column, PIS is to be entered in the P1 column. So it clearly differentiates between different types of training, and flying with a second pilot which allows an entry in P2 dual as well.


It seams to me that a lot of people do not understand log books, maybe I still don't and if someone can point me to a legal reference which clarifies the explanation in my log book giving it a different meaning I am more than happy to learn.


But at the moment I am the only person giving a direct quote from a log book instructions which as I have said do not contain the word an aircraft requires two pilots, only carries and then it goes on to differentiate between a second pilot and a first officer. Clearly ask have said a first officer is a requirement on commercial but a second pilot cN be carried in many LAA types.

As I say if you can quote me a section of law to read that alters thus position then I will gladly read it and defer, but at the monent your understanding of this carries no more weight than my Insoe tor who was was wrong.

[DaveWhite]

It's not my interpretation.

The regulations are set out in CAP804. They can also be found in Part FCL.

Wording in a commercially produced logbook is not definitive.

Here you go, Chapter & verse from CAP804. You should read all of para.3 to give context to the sub-para within the red ellipse: