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Come on in for general chat and POLITE banter between LAA members

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Paul Catanach
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Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by Paul Catanach » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:20 pm

I'd be inclined to think that the CAP overrides a logbook?

For one, it's the CAP.

For (by) two, what if after the logbook was printed the regulations changed?


Here to help. :D

P5151
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Post by P5151 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:21 pm

Dave

Thanks for that...... Please give me time to digest it.
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T Wilcock
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Post by T Wilcock » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:37 pm

Dave beat me to it! Some additional wording (from my logbook!) that is relevant:

"Whenever two (crew) members acting in the same capacity share a particular operating duty ie each performed the duty for particular periods only and neither acting under the supervision of the other, the departure and arrival times are entered in the normal manner, but the precise time during which the holder acted in the capacity indicated must be shown and a note inserted in the "Remarks" column to indicate that the duties were shared."
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Trevor Harvey
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Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by Trevor Harvey » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:05 am

Could someone explain what P1, P2, PiC etc has do do with the definition of solo?
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Tracey Curtis-Taylor
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Post by Tracey Curtis-Taylor » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:01 am

Here are the reasons why I’m not answering insistent questions about my flights.
1. There is too much to say for a chat forum. They’re a chapter in the book when I finish it.
2. Anyone who can’t wait could contact me, although it does seem that the obsessive few don’t seek answers, but rather fuel for their indignation.
3. They are irrelevant to the 2018 motions, which in different ways seek to redress the irrelevance of the 2016 motion. Even if I were the self-promoting charlatan that some think I am, there was absolutely no evidence that this brought the LAA ‘into disrepute’. I did not solicit the 2014 Woodhams Award (relating to one flight only) and – though honoured to receive it – I did not promote myself on the back of either the award or of my membership of the LAA. Whatever they thought (if anything) of me, neither the general public nor the aviation world thought any differently about the LAA. The only people shouting about it were Sam Rutherford and his associates. The premise of the 2016 motion was nonsense and The LAA Board was unwise to blunder into a campaign of what was – dress it up as you may – personal vilification.

Brian Hope
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Post by Brian Hope » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:04 am

I expect that for many members, answers about your flights are indeed no longer relevant Tracey, it is your actions subsequent to 2016 that have certainly sought to damage the reputation of the LAA. Threats of legal action, a costly freedom of information request, public slating of the Association and its members in the national press and on the radio. That's hardly been a plan to win friends and influence people has it?
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Mark Miller
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Post by Mark Miller » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:49 am

“I was thrilled to receive the Woodhams Award in 2014, the first woman aviator to be so honoured”

Well done the CEO for listing Bill Woodhams Trophy recipients down the ages. May I refer the Honourable (?) lady to the second ever winner of same, in 1979?

Patricia Holmes’ many cross-countries (in a solo-only variant of Fournier) were always a pleasure to read about in Popular Flying. Her specifically award-winning achievement is ably recalled here by Don Lord: https://southernstrut.org/newsletter/20 ... 012-issue/
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jangiolini
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Post by jangiolini » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:39 am

Aw no is TC-T writing a book too! more mistruths and bragging...by the sounds of it. She is clever though if we want answers to the questions we need to buy a copy!!! Very clever...
It wont be on my shopping list...
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Graham Donnelly
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Post by Graham Donnelly » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:44 am

Trevor Harvey wrote:Could someone explain what P1, P2, PiC etc has do do with the definition of solo?
Absolutely nothing, it is a bit of light relief though. :D I was trying to point out to Steve that there's no such thing as a P2 in a single pilot aircraft such as an RV4. Others kindly pointed him in the right direction.

The solo has been done to death you either are, or you are not solo and irrespective of who is in the other seat (pilot, instructor, disabled kid) it has an influence on the pilot.

You know I started to read TCT's latest post and stopped as I lost interest, same old, same old. :roll:

Roll on Monday!
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Donald Walker
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Post by Donald Walker » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:50 am

Trevor Harvey wrote:Could someone explain what P1, P2, PiC etc has do do with the definition of solo?
This:
There is no such thing as a P2 in single pilot aircraft. Since you are confused about that, is it possible you might also be confused about solo?
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samrutherford
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Post by samrutherford » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:33 am

One additional item from me.

I'm not engaged in a personal spat with Tracey, it's not me getting revenge. This is another fabrication.

I have NO reason to complain about Tracey, she has not wronged me (although the recent emails looking for dirt from past clients may change that). We delivered our service, everyone arrived safely in Crete, I left at exactly the same time as everyone else, we were paid.

So, Tracey, please explain how you think I wronged you (and thus need revenge), I'm genuinely interested.

My concern is the getting awards for something that wasn't done. See Lance Armstrong etc. It's call cheating, and it's not on.

I asked her twice to politely decline future awards, she declined, I blew the whistle.

It's not personal, it is that simple.

Paul Catanach
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Post by Paul Catanach » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:18 am

Tracey Curtis-Taylor wrote:Here are the reasons why I’m not answering insistent questions about my flights.

2. Anyone who can’t wait could contact me...

I’m confused, which is it? You are not answering questions or we can contact you?

What is different to contacting you through (say) your website or PM on here and asking in open forum? I believe someone (Jonzarno?) on PPRuNe did so via Terry Holloway (?) quite some time ago but is still waiting.

We’re asking, you are just not answering meaningfully. There is still time to do so and maybe change a few minds.

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mikehallam
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Post by mikehallam » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:29 am

Surely by now you're posing rhetorical questions.

BTW Back in the LAA article of ca. 2015 she was already going on about the male barrier to women.
I suggest it's in her nature to be combative to the last.

mike hallam

Paul Catanach
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Post by Paul Catanach » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:44 am

mikehallam wrote:Surely by now you're posing rhetorical questions.

You’re right Mike, I know. For my own benefit though I want to be able to look back at this and know everyone was given a fair go. Wasting my time though.

P5151
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Post by P5151 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:30 am

Crikey, don’t you guys ever sleep :)

Dave,

Thanks again for posting the Information. I think you and some others should read it again. I will point out some words and sections that again make it clear to me that some people do not understand what exactly it means. I will try to make this as simple as possible because I suspect not many of our members are educated to degree level in law. To start though I should point out that laws are generally designed to be enabling or prohibitive.This clearly falls into the enabling category.

First of all it is a guide. Gunidence is not usually compulsory unless it is stated so to be. What this guidance does is tell us how to fill out log books to have hours credited by the CAA as part for acceptance by them in respect of licence. See the start of para 3.v

While it is correct to say that the CAA will not accept hours flown in a single pilot aircraft , S3 d clearly does allow such hours to be credited in a suitably equipped aircraft. As I ipunderstand it the aeroplane flown by TCT was so equipped but whether it was agreed by the CAA it could be used as such is unknown.

What is though important is that this guide is not prescritive, I think Dave made the point that you can record pretty much what you want in there. The CAA will only though credit hours which fall within their guidance.

Now I must point out that probably the vast majority of LAA pilots fly fir a hobby, While they like to build hours a suspect t very few do so to have those hours credited by the CAA for the issue if a licence (hours builders going on to commercial excepted. I also believe that most of our members would like to keep a record in their log book of different types they have been allowed to fly in and have some stick time in their log books. Such a record will carry no weight with the CAA, but it may well for insurance purposes.

I will give an example. We had a relatively low time pilot join our RV9 group. The only non dual controls were the throttle and prop pitch which was a single control accessible by both pilots. When negotiating with the insurance for cover for him the agreement was made that he did at least 11 hours dual with our members before flying on his own as PIC. Now, I guess we could have recorded these flights as P1 us, or maybe P2. I don’t remember what we did but the flights needed to be officially recorded for insurance purposes and nothing in CAP 804 prevents them from being so recorded.


This is quite similar to the situation that occurred about 20 years ago when Kitfoxes were effectively grounded by insurance companies and when the then PFA acted by recruiting experienced Kitfox pilots to check people out for insurance purposes. This was before the forerunner of the PCS... please don’t get me onto that subject as it’s something Chris and I see as an opportunity lost.

Those hours would not have been credited for gaining a licence by the CAA but they were relavent to the aircraft being properly insured.

Another point before I turn to why this is relevant to TCT. As should be apartment to you over the years I have grouped a number of aircraft, a Tailwind which had shared and dual control but no brakes on the right.An RV 9 as described above, the 4 which has a stick and rudder controls in the rear. Virtually all of the hours spent converting people onto the aircraft were not recordable if CAP 804 was followed to the letter. Common sense though dictates that they should be recorded as evidence of experience on type not only for the pilot converting, but to record pilot experience for insurance purposes. There is nothing in CAP 804 which prevents this as it is only rally dealing with how and in what circumstances the CAA will credit hours.

Sorry if this has been a bit verbose, but why is this relevant to TCT..

Well if we were to follow the the guide of CAP 804 and the interpretation put on it by a number of members here the other pilot in the aeroplane with her would not have been able to record any of the hours when flying with her, whether or not control of the aircraft was shared by them. Even the instructor would not be able to record unless the flight was an instructional one. I hope everyone can see the irony in this, she is being slated for flying with other pilots, but under the interpretation that a number of people want to adopt of CAP 804 she was unaccompanied, it could not be recorded as a dual flight?

On the one hand people are shouting not fair she had another pilot with her but are making the case that the other pilots hours don’t count.

Anyway, the good news is that my cold is getting better and I am going off to the airfield to finish the 50 hour check on my 4.

Thanks again to Dave and and everyone who has contributed to this debate, it has switched my mind back into the nebulous thinking that occurred while studying for my degree and the PPL! It’s nice to go there occasionally rather than concentrating mostly on building aeroplanes.
Steve Arnold
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