ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Come on in for general chat and POLITE banter between LAA members

Moderators: John Dean, Moderator

Locked
dmcnicholl
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:25 pm

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by dmcnicholl » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:07 am

samrutherford wrote: On that, a couple of reflections:
  • How will the Chair use "his" proxy votes this time? Last time he simply added to the majority, will it be the same again?
My reading of this is that if you tick 'Against' the Chairman will, regardless of any personal preference, add your vote to the number opposing the motion, and vice versa. Frankly, in this matter which is likely to be highly contentious, he would be very unwise to do anything other than that. I think only if no choice is made on a motion (1 to 6 perhaps) would he, could he, use your Proxy in a way he saw fit.

I too have wondered about your second reflection. :twisted:
Donald McNicholl
006054

Trevor Harvey
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:20 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by Trevor Harvey » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:07 pm

Yet all members ultimately know that Tracey Curtis-Taylor, a long-standing member, wasn’t treated fairly and we need to look at that.
Long standing member?
Not according to this.
Joined a week after this thread started.
Or did she have some special kind of membership.

Tracey Curtis-Taylor

Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:17 am
018270

Graeme Park
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:13 pm

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by Graeme Park » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:10 pm

It seems to me that re-instatement would drag the LAA into the age of Post-truth politics:

'Post-truth politics is a political culture in which debate is framed largely by appeals to emotion disconnected from the details of policy, and by the repeated assertion of talking points to which factual rebuttals are ignored' (Wikipedia).

I therefore hope that LAA members will decisively vote AGAINST both Motions 7 and 8 and that this distraction to the LAA Board will come to an end.

Graeme Park
(Member 018680, since 1999)
Last edited by Graeme Park on Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Graeme Park
Member 018680

cirrusvfr
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:25 am
Location: East Sussex

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by cirrusvfr » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:31 pm

Trevor Harvey : I think you are confusing actual membership of the LAA as opposed to as to when people join the Forum.
Phil Laycock
016639

Planemike
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: Bolton Lancashire

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by Planemike » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:38 pm

cirrusvfr wrote:Trevor Harvey : I think you are confusing actual membership of the LAA as opposed to as to when people join the Forum.
This has been discussed on one of the forums and I seem to recall it was established she had been a member from around 2005/6.
Michael Blake
006295

P5151
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:29 pm

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by P5151 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:36 pm

Hmmmm,

I have to say that I am confused by this issue and do not understand why it has assumed the proportions it has.

I watched the programs that showed the flight that is subject of this argument. I enjoyed them immensely and felt that they showed G.A. In a good light. It was obvious that she had a support team around her and while it followed the path of the original Aviatrix, it was obvious to me that it was never intended to represent a complete replication of the original flight. None the less, it was in my view something worthy of recognition because of the good image of GA and adventure.

It seems that people have got hot under the collar because they believe that TCT’s actions have been exaggerated in some way. What exactly are these exaggerations that cause people to believe that this was not a flight worthy of recognition? Even if she had support, shared P1 time I feel that this is something that should have been seized on by the LAA to promote light aviation because the award would in effect have been for the team.

Can someone explain this to me?
Steve Arnold
020667

Trevor Harvey
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:20 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by Trevor Harvey » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:38 pm

I was under the impression that an LAA member automatically had access to/membership of the forum.
If I'm wrong , my apologies.
018270

DominicConnolly
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:44 pm

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by DominicConnolly » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:59 pm

I intend to attend the AGM and I have not yet reached a decision on which way I will vote, neither have I expressed an opinion on the matter on this forum to date. I am only interested in due process being observed and do not wish to join one of the increasingly polarised groups.

I believe the following facts are however correct:

1. Mr Tempest and Mr Martyr put forward a members motion in the 2016 AGM.
2. This motion was deemed libellous by the board.
3. The motion was amended and subsequently passed by 159-65 (17-57 present and 142-8 proxy)
4. Mr Martyr declared the membership’s wishes had been confirmed and declared the ‘matter was closed’.

My observations.

There is no doubt in my mind that although the AGM is a statutory requirement, the processes around the corporate AGM are in dire need of reform and there is potential for them to be hijacked by a minority. This has been recognised by the board and has already led to one change regarding the deadline when a motion can be filed before an AGM being brought forward to prevent an ambush. Mr Tempest and Mr Martyr can claim the credit for this.

The issue of whether the award should be rescinded should have been dealt with by the LAA Awards Group and by them alone. Why Mr Tempest and Mr Martyr chose to take on this crusade themselves is unknown but it was bad judgement and has directly led to the unwanted and negative publicity in the national newspapers regarding the LAA. For this too they can claim the credit.

Mr Martyr has stated that he had to ‘pinch himself’when he read that a motion had been filed this year to overturn his original motion. I am not quite sure why he is surprised that another individual should legitimately take exactly the same course of action that he himself took 2 years ago. Maybe he is under a misapprehension he has a monopoly on member motions.

I believe the LAA has over 7000 members. Mr Martyr’s claim that the wishes of the membership have been reflected in the support of his motion 2 years ago of 159 members (less than 2.3% of the total membership) seems somewhat disingenuous.

Both sides in this sorry saga have been guilty of misleading statements and exaggerations, but neither really concern me. This issue should never have been dealt with via a members motion. The board themselves have stated the motion ‘came as a surprise’. They should not have been put in this position. It should have been addressed and resolved long before we got to the AGM. It was a serious misjudgement for this issue to be dealt with by being proposed and seconded via a members motion and has directly led to where we are today. It is also entirely illusory to state that 159 votes is representative of the will of the membership of the LAA. However, as a member of the LAA, the resulting unwanted publicity and damage to the LAA is a concern of mine.

This may well not be the end of it, that is absolutely no reason under the current articles why a motion on this very subject cannot be raised at the AGM in perpetuity year after year.

Whatever the outcome this year, this needs to be an end to it, and if that requires reform of the articles, so be it.
Last edited by DominicConnolly on Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SteveSlater
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:24 am

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by SteveSlater » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:07 pm

DJL wrote: It’s time to look at ourselves. Our numbers are declining as the older members die out, and our average age of 60 is increasing by nearly a year every year. We are almost all men. This matter has done our standing serious damage amongst outsiders. It’s no wonder we’re seen as aviation’s old boys club. The next generation is not signing up, and without them we have no future.

Derek Lamb
I'm not going to enter the debate about the award, or the motions, but I do think its important that I answer Derek's incorrect facts above.

LAA membership at the September 2016 AGM: 7,643. Membership at 1st September 2018: 7,746.

Average age of member according to our last Member Survey (March 2016), 59.5 years. Previous survey (2011): 58.6 years.

Not a perfect figure I agree, but not the cataclysmic situation suggested.

Steve
Last edited by SteveSlater on Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Paul Catanach
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:12 pm

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by Paul Catanach » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:18 pm

P5151 wrote:Hmmmm,

I have to say that I am confused by this issue and do not understand why it has assumed the proportions it has.
<snip>

Can someone explain this to me?
Steve

There is a wealth of information out there that explains why this has gone the way it has. If there were a single, simple source I would point you at it and suggest you sit down with a cup of tea and a packet of your favourite biscuits but as there isn't I'll try to give a precis. By no means will I attempt to repeat all of it here, I have a real life to get on with!

It's not the programme that people object to so much. That might make it clear that there was a support team but in the many, many media reports across the world there was little to no mention of either them or indeed the other pilot (on solo flights?). Only once the cat was out of the bag did they get a passing mention. In the case of the latter Miss Curtis-Taylor eventually stated (and only after a long period of having her feet held to the fire) that in any event he could not have controlled the aircraft properly as the Stearman does not have dual controls. Photographs taken in South Africa of both cockpits revealed that in fact it did have two full sets. In itself this is only one example but as I stated above there are many. (Read on MacDuff).

There is 'that' photograph of Miss Curtis-Taylor standing in front of a presentation declaring her to have flown across Africa "Alone in a cock-pit (sic)". Then the video where she states several times that she flew solo and the Boeing press release (among others) that refer to it being as such. Links to all of these are on earlier posts in this thread. Like I said, I'm not going to list them all. If you can find the time to read from page one you'll see what I mean.

Then came the defences. Firstly that this was never touted as 'solo'. Well clearly it was. Then that in any event, with or without the 12,000 hour airline pilot and instructor in the other cockpit, this was a worthy feat of navigation. Well, yes I suppose it is if you accept the description of the Stearman having only 'old fashioned' instruments and are prepared to ignore 2xGPS devices and iPads in each cockpit.

Finally we are left with it just being a worthy achievement but I, and others, struggle to accept that. The logistics and planning were all done by someone else. There was an instructor on board (except when he was sneaked off at a diversion airfield before the Stearman flew on, truly solo for once, to meet a waiting crowd). It boils down to a jolly (a long one, admittedly) at someone else's expense that might make for great telly but not the sort of thing to hold up as an example to would-be pilots and the outside world.

Thehe part that has really stirred up the membership are the accusations toward the LAA who are described as a bunch of doddery old misogynists and Brian Davies in particular*. That's a bit rich coming from someone who trades as 'Bird In A Biplane' don't you think?

Please. sit and read this whole thread. I'll even pay for your biscuits. Rich Tea or Bourbon? :D


* By this I mean accusations toward Brian, not that he in particular is a doddery old misogynist.
Last edited by Paul Catanach on Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Alan Crutcher
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:40 pm

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by Alan Crutcher » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:28 pm

(Thought twice and deleted!)
Last edited by Alan Crutcher on Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cirrusvfr
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:25 am
Location: East Sussex

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by cirrusvfr » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:34 pm

Dominic wrote
However, as a member of the LAA, the resulting unwanted publicity and damage to the LAA is a concern of mine.

I agree entirely. Only one party, if I have read the this saga correctly, has hired expensive legal advisers and threatened legal action to the association and/or to its officers, whereas the other side has conducted action within the rules of the association and have used the due processes. The low percentages of votes cast to total membership are regrettable but that is not the fault of the people raising the motion.

My observation is that there is a Commercial element in rehashing all this and its quite obvious .
Phil Laycock
016639

ziggy
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:54 pm

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by ziggy » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:44 pm

I am in the same boat as RDyer, a grass roots member who has been given the opportunity to follow the dream of aviation by the excellent work done by the LAA.
The engineering team, magazine editor and some members of the Board are doing a great job and deserve our full support; however this topic has, for me, raised questions, concerns and some anger.
I don’t normally post on these forums – I don’t have anything interesting to say, but I do read the posts of others on this and other forums and there are undoubtedly some strong feelings on both sides of this argument.
For once, I feel the need to voice an opinion before I get back to the workshop and bash a few more rivets!

I personally would not want an award that either I felt was not deserved or more importantly that my fellow aviators didn’t feel I deserved. I therefore cannot understand the pursuit of this matter by Ms Curtis-Taylor.
There is obviously doubt over the facts surrounding her aviation feats and, as yet, Ms Curtis-Taylor has failed to answer any of the allegations or suggestions put to her either on this or any other forum. It would have been very easy to silence her critics if they were incorrect but instead she has chosen to attack those who question these irregularities with statements about sexism, misogyny and personal grievances.
She has attacked her fellow aviators for wanting answers to reasonable questions and has gone on the attack against the LAA board, membership and men in general.
As I fall into two of these categories, I am aggrieved at the suggestion that this is about anything other than her suitability for the Bill Woodhams trophy for a feat of navigation.
Surely, given the evidence now available, it is obvious to everyone that this was not a feat of navigation deserving of this award. In addition, I would suggest that her behaviour and actions question her role as an ambassador for aviation and more importantly female aviators.

Up to now, I too have always trusted the Board to make the right decisions on behalf of the membership. However, Ms Curtis-Taylors failure to answer her critics and the attacks on this association have me believing the right decision was made at the last AGM and I question why certain members of the Board feel otherwise.
I have never voted at the AGM but this matter has questioned my confidence in the board and my proxy vote is in the post.

To Ms Curtis-Taylor I say:
Do the decent thing and request withdrawal of the motions.
You have already lost the respect of many fellow aviators, male and female both inside and outside of the LAA. Pursuing this action is not going to change that but you might just earn a little back by doing the right thing. Having criticised the Chair, the Board and the Membership, surely your continued membership of the LAA has to be considered. If you love and wish to promote aviation for ALL as much as you claim, then let the LAA get on with their task and avoid the divisive outcome that these motions will cause at the AGM, whichever way the vote goes.

I believe the LAA chairman and board collectively have been exemplary in their handling of this matter and have given ALL members the opportunity to be heard and treated fairly. However, the motions put forward should, in my opinion, have come from the aggrieved member, not members of the board.
The motion put forward by the VP Stuart Jackson was particularly critical of the association and begs the question of his continued presence at the top of the association. His motion and some of the posts by previous board members on this forum suggest they have lost touch with the membership and the values important to grass roots members.

After this motion, I suggest those who instigated it, consider their position, whichever way it goes.

Kelvin Weston
Bloke-in-a-plane (soon, I hope) :D
Kelvin Weston
034056

ziggy
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:54 pm

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by ziggy » Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:19 pm

SteveSlater wrote:
DJL wrote: It’s time to look at ourselves. Our numbers are declining as the older members die out, and our average age of 60 is increasing by nearly a year every year. We are almost all men. This matter has done our standing serious damage amongst outsiders. It’s no wonder we’re seen as aviation’s old boys club. The next generation is not signing up, and without them we have no future.

Derek Lamb
Average age of member according to our last Member Survey (March 2016), 59.5 years. Previous survey (2011): 58.6 years.

Not a perfect figure I agree, but not the cataclysmic situation suggested.

Steve
Steve and all

I'm on a roll so here's my second post!

I wouldn't worry about the demographics of membership. I have been interested in, and worked in aviation all my life. Like most people, I only got into flying later in life when time, family and finances allowed. I think this will always be true with an activity / hobby like aviation where a higher level of financial input is required.

As for being mostly men, my wife is into paper crafting groups which seems to attract mostly females of a certain age and I am pretty sure they don't sit around pondering how to attract more men or teenagers. :D

Very few sports or hobbies will appeal across the board and most have a target demographic depending on a wide range of factors.

Kelvin Weston
Bloke-in-a-plane (soon, I hope) :D
Kelvin Weston
034056

jollyrog
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:15 pm

Re: ALL MEMBERS ! Please fill out those proxy forms..!!

Post by jollyrog » Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:42 pm

The issue at hand is not gender or whether our hobby appeals to young women (which it probably never will en-masse, get real), it's simply a vote about the actions of one person and whether the award is justified.

Equality and inclusion politics is a convenient smokescreen. She trades on her gender, but (un)surprisingly her gender is the barrier when she doesn't get her own way.

She's tried lies, PR, bravado, bluster, sympathy, complaints and legal threats. She's currently down to misogyny. If she had other obvious minority qualifications, you can be sure we'd all be anti those too.

Appealing to left leaning sympathies from a mostly male, white membership with an average age of 59.5 seems like a poor strategy.
Roger Seaward
040374

Locked