P1 and P2

[samrutherford]

An attempt to clarify P1 and P2.
This is a generalisation, there will always be limited/occasional exceptions.
Mistakes are all my own!
P2 can only be logged in an aircraft that is OBLIGED to have 2 pilots:
By manufacturer
By the national regulator
By the operator
Thus, unless you have flown professionally at some point, most LAA members should have 0 in the P2 column of their logbook.
My P2 stopped completely after leaving the Army Air Corps. Whilst serving, we logged either PIC & P1, or P2 in the Gazelle. Flying Gazelles privately, only 1 pilot can log the time (as PIC & P1), there is no P2.
Assuming a 1 hour flight:
1. Alone in the aircraft, PIC & P1 (and solo) of 1hr logged.
2. Flying with non-pilot friend, as above but not solo.
3. Flying with pilot friend, they don't touch the controls, you log as 2. Nothing logged by them.
4. As 3, but they fly half the time. They log 30 mins PIC & P1, you log 30 mins PIC & P1. Nobody logs P2 or solo.
Hopefully this is correct, and clear?
For instruction logging, I'll wait for an instructor to jump in. Whilst my commercial licences are both EASA and FAA, I primarily fly N reg or microlight, so not sure how this is done in the UK.
Good luck with the Tippex!

[Clarkie]

True, but as mentioned in the other thread, P2 can be logged in a single-pilot aircraft if approved by the CAA and operated as two crew. An example would be a corporate Kingair (single pilot aeroplane when not public transport) where CAA approved two-crew standard operating procedures are used as if two crew were required and both pilots are type-rated.

As an instructor, I think it’s a grey area when doing a checkout on someone with a valid rating. They could be P1/S in this situation, but equally P1 as they are operating within the remit of their rating. I think an instructor could argue P1 also. I’m not an SEP examiner, but following a successful skills test the candidate can log P1/S as well. I guess the examiner may also be able to log P1, because until the test is passed he is in command.

[Donald Walker]

Hopefully this is correct, and clear?

It is to me.

[Mike Cross]

IIRC the legal requirement is that you log wot it says in ANO 2016 art 228

Detailed information about
each flight during which the holder of the log acted either—
(a) as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft; or
(b) for the purpose of qualifying for the grant, renewal or revalidation of a licence, rating or
certificate under this Order or Part-FCL,

You are of course free to log any other information you want, however if you try to count time when you weren't part of the flight crew for the purpose of justifying the grant or renewal of a licence or rating you'd be in trouble.

GM1 FCL.010 of Part - FCL – Subpart A, AMC and GM defines the abbreviations. P1 & P2 don't feature.

AMC1 FCL.05 in the same document details what you have to log. On the subject of P2, more correclty known as co-pilot it says

co-pilot flight time: the holder of a pilot licence occupying a pilot seat as co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot flight time on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted;

[djwood]

As an instructor, I think it’s a grey area when doing a checkout on someone with a valid rating. They could be P1/S in this situation, but equally P1 as they are operating within the remit of their rating. I think an instructor could argue P1 also. I’m not an SEP examiner, but following a successful skills test the candidate can log P1/S as well. I guess the examiner may also be able to log P1, because until the test is passed he is in command.

I don't think that there is a grey area. There is only one captain of the aircraft and he is always P1. If he's an instructor (a FI or CRI) and he's actually instructing (ie, not merely a passenger in the aeroplane) then he is always P1 and the other fellow is always Pu/t whatever the state of his licenses or ratings. P1s only arises in circumstances when an Examiner is carrying out a flight exam of some kind with a candidate who is acting as P1 (in fact, legally speaking the examiner is actually P1 throughout and logs P1 in his own logbook). If the candidate passes that test then he can log the flight as Pilot in Command under Supervision (P1s), otherwise he logs it a Pu/t.
If you are referring to a club checkout or an informal checkout performed by a non-examiner then the FI is P1 and the checkee is Pu/t is if it was training. No exceptions.
There is a grey area, of course, if a non-FI/CRI is doing the checkout. In such circumstances the other pilot by definition cannot be Pu/t. Therefore one or other of the pilots is P1 and the other isn't.

[Ian Hoolahan]

[quote]1. Alone in the aircraft, PIC & P1 (and solo) of 1hr logged.
2. Flying with non-pilot friend, as above but not solo/quote]

Solo is not something that is required to be logged, until you have a licence you cannot take passengers so these will be solo anyway, generally solo or not is irrelevant for licensing purposes so legally not a requirement, the one anomaly in this is upgrading a licence, I have a student upgrading from a LAPL to full PPL and he has flown hundreds of cross country miles but still has to do his qualifying solo and evidence of this is by a paper form signed at the destination airfields, not by his logbook.