I've got a spare Leburg 'spacer' that I made on the lathe before I realised one came with the kit (Note to self: Check box contents before switching lathe on)
The Stromberg weighs slightly more than the SU HS4. Triumph had some HS4 dashpots that sit lower than other HS4s.
Whats the best VW conversion???
Moderators: John Dean, Moderator
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MikeGodsell
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:32 pm
- Location: West Wales
I need to apologise for my "Amateur lashup" remark earlier. The standard of workmanship shown by most home builders is generally awesome. But my gripe is that so many of us seem content to keep reinventing the wheel. Sure you can get a VW engine to work in an aeroplane, and it is fun to do it, but for heavens sake WHY?
The French home built scene is so much more advanced than ours, where we seem to be trying to recreate the pre-war years.
Instead of rehashing yet another WV conversion, why not use your energy & skills to fit a car diesel engine into your aeroplane. See; http://gazaile2.nmr7.free.fr Note the superb work done on design & fabrication of the reduction gear. Also the lightening of the engine by using carbon fibre for sump, inlet manifold, and many other parts.
Diesel with mechanical injection is the way to go. More safety, much more economy, less noise, and no problems of fuel availability. The Dieselis / Gazaile does 80 mpg at more than 100 mph cruise ..how economical is that!
The French home built scene is so much more advanced than ours, where we seem to be trying to recreate the pre-war years.
Instead of rehashing yet another WV conversion, why not use your energy & skills to fit a car diesel engine into your aeroplane. See; http://gazaile2.nmr7.free.fr Note the superb work done on design & fabrication of the reduction gear. Also the lightening of the engine by using carbon fibre for sump, inlet manifold, and many other parts.
Diesel with mechanical injection is the way to go. More safety, much more economy, less noise, and no problems of fuel availability. The Dieselis / Gazaile does 80 mpg at more than 100 mph cruise ..how economical is that!
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MikeGodsell
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:32 pm
- Location: West Wales
Mike,
It's exactly because I don't want to reinvent the wheel that I started this thread. However the 2 types I'm interested in are both cleared to use the VW and parts (cowlings, mounts ets) are readily available.
A new engine needs to have LAA input and by definition it's not just the engine that will be new causing much extra work!! Having looked at the use of the Corvair engine on KR2's in the US, what sounds simple has taken a long time to perfect!!
Strangely both my cars are Diesel powered!!
It's exactly because I don't want to reinvent the wheel that I started this thread. However the 2 types I'm interested in are both cleared to use the VW and parts (cowlings, mounts ets) are readily available.
A new engine needs to have LAA input and by definition it's not just the engine that will be new causing much extra work!! Having looked at the use of the Corvair engine on KR2's in the US, what sounds simple has taken a long time to perfect!!
Strangely both my cars are Diesel powered!!
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Nick Allen
- Posts: 456
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am
- Location: Oxford
- Contact:
That Dieselis engine is very heavy...the builders produce lots of figures to explain why overall it competes with a VW or Rotax, then describe how they had to strip weight from the design to make it all work! I think diesels have some potential...but perhaps not that one.
Out of interest, what's the process for convincing Engineering that an engine (or engine mod) is up to the job?
Out of interest, what's the process for convincing Engineering that an engine (or engine mod) is up to the job?
033719
Well a new engine will need a new mount, that mount has to be shown to be upto taking the various loads as outlined in CS-VLA as a minimum. (Gust Loads normally the most severe case). You would also have to show the installation met the design code and check engine cooling, oil cooling and redesign as required.
Getting the right prop can also be fun! I remember reading about a Europa that had a Jabiru 3300 engine that gave less than expected performance due to installation problems. If an engine setup works why change it? Why not try to get the best configuration for that engine - most power, least weight, greatest reliability etc??
Getting the right prop can also be fun! I remember reading about a Europa that had a Jabiru 3300 engine that gave less than expected performance due to installation problems. If an engine setup works why change it? Why not try to get the best configuration for that engine - most power, least weight, greatest reliability etc??
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mike newall
- Posts: 331
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:56 pm
- Location: N Yorkshire
Well, having visited Sun n Fun and having an interest in a Nipper with a dual mag Bendix boat anchor setup, I would have gone with one of these 
http://www.greatplainsas.com/index.html
http://www.aeroconversions.com/products ... index.html
http://www.greatplainsas.com/index.html
http://www.aeroconversions.com/products ... index.html
Mike,
“The French home built scene is so much more advanced than ours, where we seem to be trying to recreate the pre-war years.”
You mean they have virtually standardized on the Rotax 912 and we (not me) are fiddling with VW’s.
Having sat behind both and had engine failure in the VW I will stick to my Rotax!
Rod1
“The French home built scene is so much more advanced than ours, where we seem to be trying to recreate the pre-war years.”
You mean they have virtually standardized on the Rotax 912 and we (not me) are fiddling with VW’s.
Having sat behind both and had engine failure in the VW I will stick to my Rotax!
Rod1
021864
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Nigel Ramsay
- Posts: 298
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:13 pm
- Location: Middle Earth
VW Failure
Rod,
will you tell us WHY your VW stopped? My reason for asking is that inherently the Beetle engine is very reliable. My only knowledge of an aero VW failure was a remote filter housing which had been araldited to the case. It came adrift in flight, lost the oil and jammed against the prop, chewing the trailing edge up and causing a forced landing (successful).
This kind of thing contributes to reliability reports. I used to build racing engines (cars) and a guy who's car I maintained once said that he never really gave a thouight to the work I did until he'd completed a season without any failures while he often saw other drivers stationary by the trackside. A backhanded compliment, but oh so true!
The 1600 I removed from the D9 was a Rollason built unit, very professionally executed, and I will rebuild it 'as is' apart from the ignition and perhaps the carb (unless I can get parts). It should be a reliable unit.
I'm told the problem with stretching to an 1834 is the thinness of the barrels and the risk of crankcase cracking as the bore openings are so close to the cylinder stud threads/case savers. The extra 10 hp or so is useful but at what price?
Another caution is on alloy barrels, I hear many of the currently available are 'made in China'......
Anyway food for thought for engine builders I hope.
will you tell us WHY your VW stopped? My reason for asking is that inherently the Beetle engine is very reliable. My only knowledge of an aero VW failure was a remote filter housing which had been araldited to the case. It came adrift in flight, lost the oil and jammed against the prop, chewing the trailing edge up and causing a forced landing (successful).
This kind of thing contributes to reliability reports. I used to build racing engines (cars) and a guy who's car I maintained once said that he never really gave a thouight to the work I did until he'd completed a season without any failures while he often saw other drivers stationary by the trackside. A backhanded compliment, but oh so true!
The 1600 I removed from the D9 was a Rollason built unit, very professionally executed, and I will rebuild it 'as is' apart from the ignition and perhaps the carb (unless I can get parts). It should be a reliable unit.
I'm told the problem with stretching to an 1834 is the thinness of the barrels and the risk of crankcase cracking as the bore openings are so close to the cylinder stud threads/case savers. The extra 10 hp or so is useful but at what price?
Another caution is on alloy barrels, I hear many of the currently available are 'made in China'......
Anyway food for thought for engine builders I hope.
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Nick Allen
- Posts: 456
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am
- Location: Oxford
- Contact:
Our Limbach 1700 shed a big end (the bolt attaching this to the conrod failed), which brought things to a fairly abrupt close, but it had done many, many hours. (We replaced it with a fairly shiney exchange Limbach 2000, and are hoping this can evade the block cracking to which the larger ones are said to be prone...)...WHY your VW stopped...?
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MikeGodsell
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:32 pm
- Location: West Wales
Having thrown a pebble into this pond it is only reasonable to have it thrown back at me. We all have different interests in aviation, and that can range from open cockpit non radio biplanes, to all glass hot ships. But aviation tends to advance when new engines are deveoped. The Rotax 912 brought in lots of efficient mostly composit designs from Europe. Including thank goodness one from UK the Europa. But its time to move on, and diesel is the way to go for very many reasons. Thielert muddied the waters by developing a light weight car engine, but chose to use the common raill electronic injection system which is inherently unsuitable for aircraft use. [Simple failure of the electrical system means loss of the engine] My point about French home builders is that they experiment and push the envelope. No one would have thought it possible to power an aeroplane with a citroen AX engine. There are now a number of light weight car diesel engines out there, which are suitable for light aircraft. The WV engine has been perfected by Limbach, and faffing around with other versions seems to me a useless waste of energy. Why not use that talent for experimentation by developing aircraft diesels. Please don't be offended by my views, this is just the way I see things and I am not trying to denigrate anyones passion.
Nigel
The crank broke on an 1834 Ardem conversion. The Brazilian crank had a manufacturing flaw. The aircraft was a mk3 Nipper and the engine was low hours but had been fitted by the previous owner. No damage to the aircraft but the engine has metal bits in some very unhealthy places.
Mike
It was a fun pebble! Not sure about diesel power. When I was looking for an engine about 6 years ago I looked at all the options but most was only at prototype stage with two or three flying. PFA Engineering reckoned the Rotax was by some way the most reliable engine in the fleet, so I chose that, and then the airframe. 100 hours on I am very pleased, but you are right, I am flying a French composite hot ship (MCR01) with CS prop (French), Glass panel (South African) etc.
Rod1
The crank broke on an 1834 Ardem conversion. The Brazilian crank had a manufacturing flaw. The aircraft was a mk3 Nipper and the engine was low hours but had been fitted by the previous owner. No damage to the aircraft but the engine has metal bits in some very unhealthy places.
Mike
It was a fun pebble! Not sure about diesel power. When I was looking for an engine about 6 years ago I looked at all the options but most was only at prototype stage with two or three flying. PFA Engineering reckoned the Rotax was by some way the most reliable engine in the fleet, so I chose that, and then the airframe. 100 hours on I am very pleased, but you are right, I am flying a French composite hot ship (MCR01) with CS prop (French), Glass panel (South African) etc.
Rod1
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Nigel Ramsay
- Posts: 298
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:13 pm
- Location: Middle Earth
Heavy engines
Mike,
I take your point for exactly what it is worth and don't entirely disagree. My D9 requires a light engine, full stop. If I thought it could accomodate a small diesel I'd be more than happy to lock myself in the workshop for the winter and see what came out!
The other main reason for still using beetle engines (apart from the Limbach which costs as much as a Continental ish) is that they cost very little to install. They tend to be in the all wood types and mainly tyhe slower ones. Personally I wouldn't dream of using one in a fast glass job, or even my Taylorcraft for that matter.
Horses for Courses. I'm not sure my D9 would seem right with a 912 in it even if engineering would let me....and oh yes, the engine would cost as much as the whole plane again!
I take your point for exactly what it is worth and don't entirely disagree. My D9 requires a light engine, full stop. If I thought it could accomodate a small diesel I'd be more than happy to lock myself in the workshop for the winter and see what came out!
The other main reason for still using beetle engines (apart from the Limbach which costs as much as a Continental ish) is that they cost very little to install. They tend to be in the all wood types and mainly tyhe slower ones. Personally I wouldn't dream of using one in a fast glass job, or even my Taylorcraft for that matter.
Horses for Courses. I'm not sure my D9 would seem right with a 912 in it even if engineering would let me....and oh yes, the engine would cost as much as the whole plane again!
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Nigel Ramsay
- Posts: 298
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:13 pm
- Location: Middle Earth
Broken crank
Rod,
When I hear of broken big end bolts and broken cranks I must admit my sphyncter twitches! On race engines we changed big end bolts regularly as part of a pretty aggressive preventive maintenance policy, and I see no real reason for not doing that on a VW. I know in this case it was a 'certified' Limbach which is somewhat different. The problem is how often (they are cheap enough)?
My guess would be at 100 hrs or similar, perhaps at the same time as a top overhaul. As for the crank, well, short of a full crack test before installation, I guess it was a case of **** your luck!
Oh well, I guess I've got it all to come.
When I hear of broken big end bolts and broken cranks I must admit my sphyncter twitches! On race engines we changed big end bolts regularly as part of a pretty aggressive preventive maintenance policy, and I see no real reason for not doing that on a VW. I know in this case it was a 'certified' Limbach which is somewhat different. The problem is how often (they are cheap enough)?
My guess would be at 100 hrs or similar, perhaps at the same time as a top overhaul. As for the crank, well, short of a full crack test before installation, I guess it was a case of **** your luck!
Oh well, I guess I've got it all to come.
Talking of new engines, I was expecting someone to mention the 'J' word rather than messing around with VW's?
Cost however is a big factor in engine choice and as most single seaters sell for around £6000, it's hard to justify a £9000 engine such as a rotax 912!!?? Even some two seaters sell for little more than £10000!!
There are many differences between homebuilding in the UK and France, the French produce many more 'one off' or new designs than in the UK, can't help but wonder why??
Cost however is a big factor in engine choice and as most single seaters sell for around £6000, it's hard to justify a £9000 engine such as a rotax 912!!?? Even some two seaters sell for little more than £10000!!
There are many differences between homebuilding in the UK and France, the French produce many more 'one off' or new designs than in the UK, can't help but wonder why??