Factory Built

Come on in for general chat and POLITE banter between LAA members

Moderators: John Dean, Moderator

CP
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am

Factory Built

Post by CP » Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:23 pm

Hi All, Lets use our organisation to move into this century and supply what we want, as other organisations do!

With EASA and supposedly no them and us lets hope we get some equal treatment and can fly what we really want to.....Factory Built.

And hopefully create some jobs here at the same time!

I understand Factory Built is not everyones bag but come on lets pull together in a positive way and make it happen, and who knows we might get more people to stay in aviation for a change.

Nick Allen
Posts: 456
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am
Location: Oxford
Contact:

Post by Nick Allen » Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:54 pm

How does "factory built" create jobs here? Surely the jobs will be wherever the manufacturing cost vs. knowledge-base is most favourable, and as far as European aircraft are concerned that probably means the Czech Republic. Or Poland. Or perhaps Italy. Maybe Slovakia...
033719

CP
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am

Post by CP » Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:58 pm

"How does "factory built" create jobs here? "

Someone has to sell the aircraft = Job
Someone has to assemble the aircraft = Job
Someone has to maintain the aircraft = Job
Someone might even be tempted to build aircraft here = JOBS
Easy really.

I agree work force in EU is cheaper so what are we to do, Roll over and play dead?

Nick Allen
Posts: 456
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am
Location: Oxford
Contact:

Post by Nick Allen » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:13 am

So when you say "factory built" do you actually mean "paying someone in this country to assemble a (presumably fast-build) kit"? i.e. professional assembly?
By the way, do you realise that apparently we're two-thirds of the people who can actually post here at the moment? I don't know what we did to deserve this...

CP
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am

Post by CP » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:36 am

Big fish Etc.

I just want aircraft built by people who know more than me but want the benefits of flying on a permit. LOL

Looks like we will be talking to each other for a while?

User avatar
Rod1
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:22 am
Location: Midlands

Post by Rod1 » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:51 pm

“can fly what we really want to.....Factory Built.”

“Someone has to maintain the aircraft = Job”

I have gone from a factory built to building and maintaining my own. My AA5B was costing about £4700 on average a year to maintain and my MCR is costing about £250 ish. I think what people want is affordable flying. If Factory built aircraft cost twice what a kit costs and an order of magnitude for running costs then I do not think it is what people want.

It may be that the new LAA sees itself as an AOPA replacement, focusing on factory built aircraft and more wealthy members in the £100k plus earnings bracket. If this is the case then it will very quickly disenfranchise the existing membership who has built their own. It will then only be a mater of a few years before the Popular Flying Association will be formed to represent people like me.

Rod1
021864

CP
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am

Post by CP » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:23 pm

What did your MCR cost Rod?

Not being nosey its just that EUROPE can buy and fly for the same price as we buy and build.

ALL I ask is we are represented and treated EQUALY.

I too fly Cert aircraft but prefer the value for money permit route as previously stated!!

No time to build so should this exclude me from being a member?

Nick Allen
Posts: 456
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am
Location: Oxford
Contact:

Post by Nick Allen » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:39 pm

"EUROPE can buy and fly for the same price as we buy and build."

Can you give a "for instance" of this?

"No time to build so should this exclude me from being a member?"

Absolutely not. There are lots of second-hand permit aircraft available. And completed aircraft of approved design can be imported (with caveats -- see the publication about this available on the site). And there are plenty of perfectly servicable machines under the "vintage" label too: Aeroncas, Austers, Fourniers...
033719

CP
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am

Post by CP » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:48 pm

Zenith,TL Sting and im sure more.

If you want to fly Vintage, Flexwing, Helicopters, Hangliders, so be it, but all I am saying is, as we are IN Europe lets take some good out of it for a change and have the same opportunities!

I’m sure their safety record is no worse than ours, so who/what’s the problem?

User avatar
Rod1
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:22 am
Location: Midlands

Post by Rod1 » Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:29 pm

My MCR cost 62.5% of a new factory built one from Europe with similar kit, not including delivery of the factory aircraft. For the record, I would rather have mine, even if the cost of purchase was a lot closer.

If you are buying factory aircraft because you do not think you are capable of building one, then you will presumably use licensed engineers to maintain them. You are therefore getting no benefit from a permit system. The new Euro LSA’s may be less expensive than a Cirrus because of the lower certification cost, but it will still cost more to buy and a lot more to maintain.

Don’t get me wrong, I think factory aircraft are great. However the only organisation which can issue a permit on my VLA is the LAA. If this organisation is going to concentrate on factory built aircraft then I and about 4000 other LAA members may get a bit upset!

Rod1
021864

CP
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am

Post by CP » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:19 pm

Rod, so are you saying we should NOT have the same options as Europe and IF we do you and 4000 others will leave?

Nick Allen
Posts: 456
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am
Location: Oxford
Contact:

Post by Nick Allen » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:12 am

CP, I'm still not quite sure where you're going with this line, or what exactly you're after. Is that you want a shiny new (and modern) aircraft that you can run on a Permit but don't want to/don't feel you can build yourself? You want to have such a plane "professionally" built -- by a factory or a suitably qualified individual, who presumably you would want to take on the attendant product liability? And this will cost how much?
There are plenty of people who build aircraft, fly them a bit, sell them and build another one -- why not buy one of these? The LAA inspection system means they are built to a standard. Check out the small ads in the magazine.
If an EASA-sanctioned LSA category comes to pass, then it's almost certain that eligible aircraft would be available in the UK, but as Rod said, these are likely to be a more costly option than the current UK Permit system.
033719

CP
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am

Post by CP » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:40 am

Nick, ALL that I am after is the same opportunity to buy and fly aircraft as the rest of Europe.

I feel sure the standards in EU are as good as ours and feel sure their safety records will stand up against ours so Are we European or NOT?

IMHO I would be much happier in a Permit/LSA type aircraft built in one of the production line type factories I have seen in EU, than an aircraft I built!

If its good for the rest of the EU, WHY not for us.

I think like the motor industry it will happen, if we (LAA) want any control over it, the time is now!

User avatar
Rod1
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:22 am
Location: Midlands

Post by Rod1 » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:08 am

CP

I too am confused by your argument.

You do not want to get your hands dirty, but you want the benefits of a permit.

I do not see this working. Factory built Euro LSA’s are C of A aircraft. My main saving on running costs is doing my own maintenance. If you do not think you can do this you will have to pay pay pay.

You state what we all want is factory built aircraft.

This is the only organisation in the UK which encourages homebuilt aircraft. If it were to abandon this and concentrate on factory built aircraft then I and a lot of others would be left high and dry. One of our main objectives as an organisation is to encourage “affordable flying”. Hombuilt aircraft are the best bang for the buck you can get. Your argument that a factory built aircraft can be bought in Europe for the same money as a kit can be built in the UK is just not true in the case of my MCR.

You want “equality” with Europe.

So do I! The European home build world is much better than ours, but it is not being eclipsed by factory built aircraft. European kits are generally less expensive than ours. This is mostly the CAA’s fault.

I am not saying that the LAA should not get involved in maintenance training courses, pilot licensing and factory built aircraft. I am saying it should remember it also has a responsibility to its existing members. I am concerned that we will find it more profitable to court the 150k a year earners who can throw money at factory built aircraft and abandon the home built side.

Rod1
021864

Nick Allen
Posts: 456
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:00 am
Location: Oxford
Contact:

Post by Nick Allen » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:10 am

And another thing... the European "non-certified" scene is far from homogeneous -- the Member States are retaining their own systems -- so it is a fallacy to talk about "the rest of Europe" as if it is an entity.
If an aircraft is EASA certified, then that's another matter, but we're then moving back into the world of high running costs.

Post Reply