LAA amateur built aircraft flying to France post Brexit

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gregorp
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LAA amateur built aircraft flying to France post Brexit

Post by gregorp » Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:48 pm

It would appear that as of 1st Jan 2021 the agreement with the French Government (covered in T.L 2.08) will no longer apply. The French only apply the ECAC agreement to aircraft from the EEA, and we are withdrawing from that as well as the EU.
Is anything being done to resolve this? I guess we will need a new agreement with the French, or will have to apply for permission each time we fly to France..
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Andrew Sutcliffe
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Re: LAA amateur built aircraft flying to France post Brexit

Post by Andrew Sutcliffe » Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:50 pm

I have moved to France and would now like to take my aircraft to France just like I drove a car last week. Is anybody flying to France at the moment? I can't find any information.

Donald Walker
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Re: LAA amateur built aircraft flying to France post Brexit

Post by Donald Walker » Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:51 pm

Steve Slater wrote this elsewhere:
Permit aircraft permissions are generally governed by ECAC letters of agreement, which are independent of EASA and are signed by the individual heads of the national aviation authorities involved. These enable LAA Permit aircraft, older historic types and amateur-built aircraft, overflight and access to the signatory countries.

There is a slight technicality in that some of the letters of agreement are currently worded “aircraft of the EC and Switzerland”, and we need of course to get “and the UK” added to the documents. This is in hand with the CAA/EC team as we speak.
I think he will find that permissions are not always governed by ECAC letters of agreement. They may start off as LOA, but some are incorporated into local legislation, as is the case in France and Belgium. It is then not a case of getting "and the UK" added to 'documents', it will need a change to government decrees.
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/id/ ... 0036437808
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTe ... 0036437838

In the absence of new arragements, we will have to pay 50 euros for the privilege of submitting an application for permission to fly in French airspace. https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/sites/defa ... /LP6-2.doc

Ironically, Belgium, where until recently permission was required, will continue to grant free access to UK registered amateur built and historic aircraft. https://www.etaamb.be/fr/arrete-royal-d ... 12691.html
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Alan Kilbride
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Re: LAA amateur built aircraft flying to France post Brexit

Post by Alan Kilbride » Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:48 am

I believe that's the reasoning behind the negotiations being carried out by LAA and EFLEVA as we speak.
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Andrew Sutcliffe
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Re: LAA amateur built aircraft flying to France post Brexit

Post by Andrew Sutcliffe » Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:02 pm

These are solutions being worked on to solve the post Brexit situation. Does anyone know what the situation is now for flying to France before the end of the year. I have driven down to the Dordogne because it is my new home but can I bring the a/c down here?

tnowak
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Re: LAA amateur built aircraft flying to France post Brexit

Post by tnowak » Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:14 pm

I would ask that question on the Flyer Forum.
There are a few English posters on that website who are based and live in France.
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Izabaz
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Re: LAA amateur built aircraft flying to France post Brexit

Post by Izabaz » Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:30 pm

Hi,

I am currently in discussion with the DGAC in order to have a firm answer about this issue.

Until now, Permit aircraft could fly in France (for a maximum of 28 days per year), under the law called "'arrêté du 8 janvier 2018 relatif au survol du territoire français par certains aéronefs anciens étrangers".

I will post here the definite answer.

Regrds,

IZA
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Donald Walker
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Re: LAA amateur built aircraft flying to France post Brexit

Post by Donald Walker » Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:42 am

The 'arrêté du 8 janvier 2018 relatif au survol du territoire français par certains aéronefs anciens étrangers" covers
(a) historic aircraft meeting the following criteria:
(i) aircraft whose:
— initial design was established before 1 January 1955, and
— production has been stopped before 1 January 1975;
or
(ii) aircraft having a clear historical relevance, related to:
— a participation in a noteworthy historical event,
— a major step in the development of aviation, or
— a major role played into the armed forces of a Member State;
What most of us are interested in is amateur built aircraft, which are covered by another decree of the same date. Links to both were posted above. Until they are modified to include aircraft registered in the UK, or ECAC countries, we will need to apply for a permit and pay 50 euros for it.

Since those decrees were issued in response to ECAC recommendatiions, it seems to me that, from a political point of view, it would be more sensible to seek a modification to expand cover to ECAC member states, rather than adding the UK to EEA member states and Switzerland.

The same applies to another French decree that covers overflight by foreign microlights.
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Izabaz
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Re: LAA amateur built aircraft flying to France post Brexit

Post by Izabaz » Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:05 am

This sounds like what the current situation is.
What the solution should be is sadly beyond our reach.

Iza
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Re: LAA amateur built aircraft flying to France post Brexit

Post by Donald Walker » Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:30 am

The solution may be beyond our reach, but I hope whoever is negotiating on our behalf realises success could depend on making it easier for the DGAC to get approval from the Ministry by seeking modifications that do not mention the UK. Keeping Brexit out of it has to make sense.
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Ian Hoolahan
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Re: LAA amateur built aircraft flying to France post Brexit

Post by Ian Hoolahan » Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:31 pm

Any progress on this, I know we probably cant go anyway because of Covid and some with a LAPL might have a further problem but be nice to know where we stand!
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John Dean
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Re: LAA amateur built aircraft flying to France post Brexit

Post by John Dean » Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:46 pm

I heard a rumour that the DGAC has agreed to amend their law and is at present drafting the necessary legislation -- but it could just be a rumour!

Perhaps Steve Slater will know more at the LAA Virtual Pub Night on Friday evening.

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Steve Slater
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Re: LAA amateur built aircraft flying to France post Brexit

Post by Steve Slater » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:58 am

We've been told that the DGAC has agreed to sign the revised ECAC letter of agreement, but that the CAA does not yet have it in their possession.

I've seen an e-mail from DGAC confirming this, so it's all going in the right direction, although it is likely we won't have overseas flights enabled in COVID legislation before June or July earliest.
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jonbriggs
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Re: LAA amateur built aircraft flying to France post Brexit

Post by jonbriggs » Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:12 pm

Any news on the rest of the EU? Or are we restricted to just France?
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Donald Walker
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Re: LAA amateur built aircraft flying to France post Brexit

Post by Donald Walker » Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:26 pm

Here is the news we have been waiting for.

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/id/ ... 0043328559

France has added the UK to the list of countries covered by:
Amateur built aircraft, registered in a European Economic Area member State or in Switzerland, are allowed to overfly the French territory without prior validation of their airworthiness document for a duration not exceeding 28 consecutive days in any one visit
and
Historic aircraft, registered in an European Economic Area member State or in Switzerland, are allowed to overfly the French territory without prior validation of their airworthiness document for a duration not exceeding 28 consecutive days in any one visit
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